Once saved; always saved?

Andrew said:

It is related. But obviously, you do not understand grace.

I see you have already judged your friend. He doesnt seem to be living the way he ought too -- according to your own standards.

You cannot accept the fact that someone like him can still go to heaven, becos you've worked so hard at keeping your salvation that you just can't stand it if someone like your friend can make it too.

Hence, you are against OSAS. A little bit like the pharisees who take offence that Jesus would befriend prostitutes and sinners, instead of them.

The OSNAS doctrine fails this simple test:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

When a joyful, newly born-again believer starts hearing things like -- by the way, don't be too happy yet, if you don't watch it, you might still end up in hell! -- it is certainly not wisdom from above that brings peace, but it brings fear and robs the new Christian of his new-found joy. IOW it is a doctrine from the pit of hell.

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Let me ask you hypothetical question. (Anybody else can answer this too)



Andrew, if you, myself, or any other believer turned and lived a life outside of

God's word, rejecting Christ, meaning that you basically did everything that the Bible says not to do, do you believe that you or anyone else, would still go to heaven?


Yes or No?


(please refrain from, a believer cannot do that, or would not do that or they were never saved to begin with)

Andrew said:

That was my point. The Holy Spirit bears witness with what we read or hear. And I'm saying that the witness was very negative when I read that portion. IOW, it failed the simple test:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

After I read that portion, joy was robbed, peace was lost and fear crept in.

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Andrew, it is becoming apparent to me that you may be confused about several things...

One, you are relying on emotions to confirm the Word of God. When you do that, you are over on the devil's territory. Joy is not an emotion, happiness is. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit. You allowed Satan to "confirm" that OASA is true. Joy comes from within, not outside. Joy comes up from your spirit, not your mind or soul. You should know that, it is one of the main hallmarks of WoF. For instance, you can have joy in the darkest circumstances of your life.

Two, You have chosen the wrong test to confirm scripture. The scriptures are to interpret scriptures. Not emotional feelings, for it is there that you will go into error. Always use the scriptures as the test, along with the unction of the Holy Spirit. They will not lead you astray. All doctrine must agree with all of the scriptures. Or there is error in the doctrine, somewhere.

OSAS implies no more human freewill in life.

To use your term "OSNAS", that does imply that there is a choice you can make at any time. The choice to continue in the Word, or to reject Jesus is scriptural, but your "test" is not.

On another note, you certainly have the right to decide whatever you want to believe, after all, it is your eye and you can choose what to let in through your own eye (the mind or soul). This is what determines what gets down into your heart. If you block (or filter) some of the Light, then it will not be as full of light as it should be.

However, you said, in a indirect way, that Kenneth Hagin made up the story of "the 1952 vision", why would you say that with all the undeniable scriptural and natural confirmations that was presented? It is not good to hang on to the devil's thoughts, it will control some portions of your spiritual life in Jesus.

Philippians 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

I don't believe "once saved, always saved" mainly because of the way I was raised and from the scriptures in the bible. My best friend is Baptist and we have this type debate all the time. I always look at these scriptures JOhn15:1-10 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will ber much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If any one does not remin in me, ne is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branchesare picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you ask whaever you wish, and it be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, ahowing yourselves to be my disciples.
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love,just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I also like to use Hebrews 6:6" If they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." These verse are from a NIV version. If you want to look up the fruits of the spirits, they can be found in Galations 5:22. I hope God keeps blessing you over and over again.
God Bless

......... ........Where are all the OSAS'ers?

hal said:

I view this text as proof that "once saved; always saved" is wishful thinking.
Comments?

2 Perer2:15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

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Are you saying you are overlooking the many scriptures that assure us of our salvation? Maybe you could show several scriptures pertaining to both views.

I see both views. I am comforted to know that nothing will pluck me out of His hands, and yet I am told he would rather spit me out if I am luke warm.

One, you are relying on emotions to confirm the Word of God. When you do that, you are over on the devil's territory. Joy is not an emotion, happiness is. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit. You allowed Satan to "confirm" that OASA is true.

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I wasn't talking about emotions. I was talking about the witness of the Holy Spirit. You have the Holy Spirit in you right, so how does He witness to you? How does he tell you that what you are hearing or reading is truth or error or half-truth?

Ironically, it was Kenneth Hagin who also taught the same thing about the witness of the Spirit. You may want to study what he taught about this subject first to understnd what I'm talking about, b4 you accuse me of being in the devil's territory.

The scriptures are to interpret scriptures. Not emotional feelings, for it is there that you will go into error. Always use the scriptures as the test, along with the unction of the Holy Spirit. They will not lead you astray. All doctrine must agree with all of the scriptures. Or there is error in the doctrine, somewhere.

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You still do not understand. I can give you more than 3 simple direct clear-cut scriptures that prove salvation cannot be lost, but you will still disagree. Both parties can throw up scriptures all day long, write books with scriptures all over the place to support what they believe to be true.

In this case, scripture alone is not enough. You need the witness of the Spirit. The Word and the Spirit always go hand in hand.

However, you said, in a indirect way, that Kenneth Hagin made up the story of "the 1952 vision", why would you say that with all the undeniable scriptural and natural confirmations that was presented? It is not good to hang on to the devil's thoughts, it will control some portions of your spiritual life in Jesus.

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Now you accuse me of saying that Bro Hagin made it all up. I never said that. The Bible does say though, that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Forget the vision, go back to the scripture and the annointing within.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Suppose you've just gotten saved. You are full of joy and there's a peace in your spirit that surpasses all understanding. You also sense God's love and love God. You know you are no longer a sinner going to hell should you die a sinner.

Then one day, someone comes a long and tells you that you are not really saved yet. He says that you could still lose your salvation and end up in hell. Then he shows you many scriptures to prove his doctrine. You get a little confused becos he is so convincing. You were sure you were saved and heaven-bound but now you are not so sure, not so secure.

Question:

1. Is this "wisdom from above" that this new Christian is hearing "pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy"? Does he go:"Tell me more! You message is so annointed!"

2. Does it usher him into greater "love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost"? or does it rob him of the love, joy and peace that he had following salvation?

In short, does being told that you are not really saved, that you could still lose your salvation and end up in hell if you don't play your part well-enough, fill your spirit with even more love, joy and peace?

Does it make you fall in love with God all over again? Does it make you cry: "ABBA FATHER! thank you I'm not really saved! Thank you there's a chance I cld end up in hell! Thank you I have something to do where my salvation is concerned!"

RevKidd said:

Let me ask you hypothetical question. (Anybody else can answer this too)



Andrew, if you, myself, or any other believer turned and lived a life outside of

God's word, rejecting Christ, meaning that you basically did everything that the Bible says not to do, do you believe that you or anyone else, would still go to heaven?


Yes or No?


(please refrain from, a believer cannot do that, or would not do that or they were never saved to begin with)

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That is like asking someone "After they had seen the light, and have tasted heaven and all God has for us......do you want to go to hell and burn forever?" Or, like asking someone who has eaten a brownie, "would you rather eat vomit"?.....To me, that's a no-brainer.

Once God brings your spirit to life, it is impossible to want to go back to the darkness. He promises to keep you until the end and to glorify you....all of those He has predestined....His promise is one I hold on to.

Now, if I reject Him, than I never really saw the light in the first place because I don't know of one person who would actually rather go to hell once Christ has renewed their souls....do you?

When you really come to Jesus (I don't mean raise you hand or go forward) it should cause you to (want to) drop on your knees and bow before His majesty. When God began to show me grace, it caused me to feel so in awwwhhh of Him. I was so thankful that He died for such a sinner as myself....I didn't want to do anything to grieve Him. So, to have someone who is sooooo thankful for their salvation....all of a sudden turn totally against God...I don't see that as possible.

Andrew, if you, myself, or any other believer turned and lived a life outside of God's word, rejecting Christ, meaning that you basically did everything that the Bible says not to do, do you believe that you or anyone else, would still go to heaven?

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Isnt this the typical hypothetical OSNAS question/scenario that simply ignores plain scriptures like:

1 Jo 5:18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

So why do OSNAS people keep coming up with hypothetical questions that talk about those "born of God" who continue sinning, who "lived a life outside of God's word, rejecting Christ, meaning that you basically did everything that the Bible says not to do"?

Such so-called 'Christians' who sin like there's no tomorrow are not born of God in the first place! If they are born of God, then the Bible clearly says that they do not continue in sin.

So why can't they simply take God at his word instead of turning to personal experiences: "I know so and so, he was a Christian who went on mission trips, lead Bible study etc, but now he's...." There are even pastors and preachers who are not born-again.

We all sin and if we say we are without sin, we are liars. The difference is having a heart like Paul who would hate the things he did, that were not pleasing to God and continue to finish the race....never giving up and okaying sin. God knows we will sin and He loves us anyway. I believe He looks at our hearts....do we long to have a closer walk with him? Do we ask him to forgive us when we sin and ask for help in not returning to that sin?

Hey guys--it’s been a while since I’ve come back to this thread to put in a couple of pennies. I hope everybody’s having a happy set of holidays. I know I have a great deal to thank the Lord for--I mean, you know, that whole thing about paying my ransom and saving me from Gehenna and all that... Andrew, here’s my response to your comments on 2 Peter; if I miss something else just give me a nudge.

Again, you neglect the word ESCAPE! We all know that Peter was talking about false teachers here--that's not the issue. The issue is those false teachers who fell under Peter's "if, then." If they have ESCAPED the pollutions of the world, they are entangled therein again and overcome. (We should all note that the key word here is "overcome," not "stumbled a bit and was struck down by mean ol' big G") He didn't mean to say that all or any of them ever even knew the right way, let alone followed it...but he did say IF they did, they are no longer in it, and the end of them is worse than the time before they heard the truth, or heeded it. Were we born sheep? None of us do good--no, not one. "The dog returns to his vomit." is absolutely no indicator of whether or not these false teachers ever knew Christ.

As for the righteousness of one man saving many, there is no argument in those scriptures to support OSAS. Who ever said that our righteousness buys us anything? No one on any side of this argument has. Not in this thread, anyway. The question is not a man’s works, as they are filthy rags, but the Spirit that is in the man. Salvation by works is NOT part of the refutation of OSAS, and it never has been. If you think it is, you don’t understand the argument.

Now, here is where we have an agreement: we both believe in freedom. I don’t have much of a problem with OSAS--if a man believes as you do, accepting all of 1 John and not just the first two chapters, he and I do not see a great deal of head butting on this subject. The doctrine I have enmity with is “Everyone sins every day.” This is an invitation for bondage, and is a direct violation of the scriptures that you have already printed more than once. Christ’s death and resurrection was by all means sufficient to free us from the bonds of sin and death. If we sin every day, we are not free from sin. That is the very definition of bondage. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil--not stand by while his children remain slaves.

“If a man IS filled with the Spirit, he WILL endure to the end.” is an acceptable belief to me, Andrew, so rest assured that we are not far from each other here. I think that one who believes in OSAS must explain 2 Peter a bit better than you have, but that’s not a core issue for me--what I respect is that you believe that those who find God find freedom, because God is freedom. We might never agree about 2 Pet, but agreeing on freedom is enough peace for me.

RevKidd said:

Let me ask you hypothetical question. (Anybody else can answer this too)



Andrew, if you, myself, or any other believer turned and lived a life outside of

God's word, rejecting Christ, meaning that you basically did everything that the Bible says not to do, do you believe that you or anyone else, would still go to heaven?


Yes or No?


(please refrain from, a believer cannot do that, or would not do that or they were never saved to begin with)

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Hi Revkidd.

You hypothetical situation is not taking account of the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ that has been born again into this believer.
Eventually, this believer would be forced to decide one way or another. Christ or sin.

Godisincontrol said:

We all sin and if we say we are without sin, we are liars.

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Hmmm..
I have heard people say this. But where is this in scripture?

Leaving the straight away doesn't mean that you've lost your salvation. That just means that you have grown away from God. But, that doesn't mean HE's left you. Ya know the whole thing abou God never leaving you - you'll be crushed but not broken etc? Once you've got Jesus in your heart - he's not leavin' He'll be by your side. It's all the human nature to grow away - flesh is the deal. You flesh is saying I don't like this, we don't need this....and you grow away....but God doesn't. Do I make sense? lol....

Godisincontrol said:

We all sin and if we say we are without sin, we are liars.

didaskalos said:

Hmmm..
I have heard people say this. But where is this in scripture?

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Ciic may have been referring to this scripture; 1 John 1:10. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

As we can see, Ciic's quote has been slightly twisted from the original content. He thinks that we sin, but he overlooks the fact that the reference does not say that, rather, it complements, or goes hand in hand with the "doctrine" of all have sinned, but as 1John 1:7 says, "7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." As we know, the Blood of Jesus does cleanse us from sin, and as we grow into maturity in Jesus, we sin less and less. It is, by the way, commanded for a Christian to live a sin free life, totally "under the influence" of the Holy spirit.

This misquoted scripture, unfortunately, perpetuates the idea that it is impossible for a Christian not to sin...

look said:

Ciic may have been referring to this scripture; 1 John 1:10. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

As we can see, Ciic's quote has been slightly twisted from the original content. He thinks that we sin, but he overlooks the fact that the reference does not say that, rather, it complements, or goes hand in hand with the "doctrine" of all have sinned, but as 1John 1:7 says, "7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." As we know, the Blood of Jesus does cleanse us from sin, and as we grow into maturity in Jesus, we sin less and less. It is, by the way, commanded for a Christian to live a sin free life, totally "under the influence" of the Holy spirit.

This misquoted scripture, unfortunately, perpetuates the idea that it is impossible for a Christian not to sin...

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You answered my question, and provided my planned response!

[c][/c]

I Corinthians 6:9-10</B>

• King James Version
  "[size=+1]K[/size]now ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  
• New King James Version
  "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.""
  
• New International Version
  "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
  
• Revised Standard Version
  "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Any thoughts on this? There are many people who have been "saved" who are guilty of the above.

I am open to your suggestions.

Care Bear said:

• King James Version "[size=+1]K[/size]now ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
• New King James Version "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.""
• New International Version "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
• Revised Standard Version "[size=+1]D[/size]o you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Any thoughts on this? There are many people who have been "saved" who are guilty of the above.

I am open to your suggestions.

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I am still debating these in my own heart and mind. But let me suggest a couple things that I hold true regarding this verse.
1. What is the "Kingdom of God"?
I understand the kingdom of God to be the sphere of the spirit. When Jesus said that the kingdom of God was within us, I believe He was saying it is in our hearts, or spirit.
The kingdom ofGod comes to us in this life:
Luke 9
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is the new birth:
Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
2. When this verse says that these sorts of people will not inherit the "kingdom of God" I am almost convinced that He is talking about the spirit man within you. He in essance is saying that you must be born again. The new man that is born again into you has the divine nature... and does not have these evils as a part of it.
The new man born into us cannot sin these sins:
1 John 3:9 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Matthew 7:18 KJV
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
If your spiritual nature has these evils, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

3. The Corinthian fornicator was still consided saved. He was facing destruction of the flesh for his sin if he did not repent.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJV
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This man was a fornicator in his flesh, but was not in his spirit. If he died, it says he would be saved in the day of the lord Jesus.

4. 1 John 5 stipulates that there are two kinds of sin. One sort that causes spiritual death, and another that does not.

1 John 5:16-17 (my paraphrase)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is a sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto (spiritual) death.


5. Gal 6 states that those who sin in the flesh will reap the corruption in the flesh.

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

My leadings therefore is that if a man is born again, he will not be the things that are described in these verses. The new man is pure and holy, and there is no sin in it. It is created after the image of God.

didaskalos said:

You answered my question, and provided my planned response!

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it's all just one big dida conspiracy