Jason0047 said:
Isaiah 59:2
“But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
The whole of Isaiah 59 shows that, despite this, God still reaches in and saves. Those who repent, he saves.
Verse 20, 21: "The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."
Dear HG:
Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope all is going well with you in regards to the good things of the Lord.
Anyways, to get down to business:
First, Isaiah 59:2 plainly says their sins have separated them from God.
God is not ultimately concerned about our physical well being but He is ultimately concerned about our spiritual well being. God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (John 4:24). If God’s Word says that our sins have separated us from Him, that means He is talking spiritually. We ultimately sin against God on a spiritual level because God (as the Trinity) is a spirit being. So if we commit serious sin, we separate ourselves from God unless we repent.
Second, the Israelite’s sin is used as a warning to us.
We see that the Israelite's sin is was what consumed them.
"And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed." (Numbers 32:13).
And then we see God telling Moses that he will blot their name out of His book if those Israelites who sinned against Him.
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:33).
Moses was willing to blot his own name out God's book in order to save the Israelites (Exodus 32:32). Obviously if Moses knew they would be safe in God’s arms in the afterlife if they died physically, then it would have been pointless for Moses to throw down his own life (if he knew they would be saved spiritually by God).
In fact, Revelation 21:2 and Revelation 21:27 says this about the book of life,
2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, ..."
27 "And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Here in verse 27 of Revelation 21, we learn that nothing can enter the holy city of Jerusalem that defiles, works abomination (sin), or makes a lie. But who can? Those whose names are written in the book of life can enter. So this tells us that those whose names are written in the book of life are NOT those who defiles themselves or those who work abominations, or who lies.
Revelation 22:19 says,
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Okay, this is pretty clear in letting us know that the sin leads to a loss of one's salvation. If a person were to take away the words of the book of this prophecy (Whether you believe that is the book of Revelation or the Bible), God will take away their name out of the book of life.
Isaiah 59:20 is repeated in part in Romans 11:26.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Romans 11:26).
Romans 11:22 says if we do not continue in His goodness we will be cut off. This is talking about righteousness and it is not talking about receiving the mercy of Jesus Christ by having faith in Him alone. John 15:6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." 1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
So we know if whether or not Jesus is abiding in us if we find that we are keeping His commandments. If we are not keeping His commandments and claim to know Him, we are a liar. This means we have to keep his commandments in order to be true in saying we abide in Christ. But Jesus says if we do not abide in Him, then we are cast off as a branch and burned. This is obvious. You cannot claim to sin and say you know Him or abide within Him. Jesus says if you do not abide in Him then you will be cast off and burned. This is clearly talking about hell.
Matthew 13:41-42 says the same thing. It says Christ will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and which do iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (hell).
Also, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-14 it talks about how many of the Israelites who were set free from Egypt had drank of that spiritual rock who is Jesus Christ, but because of their sin, they died. Their death was an example to us that we should not sin. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 10 concludes the point with the sin of Israelites by saying that God provides a way of escape if we are tempted. Hebrews 3:8-12 mentions how the Israelites had tested God because they always do err in their heart and they have not known His ways. God declared an oath in his wrath that they (i.e. the Israelites who fell in the wilderness) would not enter into His rest. The rest spoken of here is talking about salvation. The Israelite’s error was sin. They provoked God by their sin (which is unbelief). They departed from the living God.
“12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.” (Hebrews 3:12-13).
Did you catch that? There is a warning to us about hardening our hearts to the deceitfulness of sin. So yes. Sin is a big problem. It hardens the heart and causes an evil heart of unbelief making us depart from the living God. The deceitfulness of sin is the lie that the devil pushed in the Garden of Eden.
“Yea, you shall not surely die.” ~ The Devil.
But people today are buying into the same lie that Eve bought into back in the Garden.
The devil was trying to get Adam and Eve to break God’s one Command.
When they broke that command, they died spiritually.
HatGuy said:
We've established in a previous post that we're both in semi-agreement about repentance, that it is necessary. But this scripture does not show that sin sends people to hell. In fact, what it shows is that God will come in wrath against those who do wrong to encourage them to repent. That means it is not speaking of the eternal judgement. It is a remedial judgement for the sake of encouraging repentance. Much of God's judgement against Israel in the O.T. is remedial - it encourages repentance. He sent them to Babylon so they would repent.
No. Jesus said repent or perish.
Perish means to perish spiritually in the Lake of Fire because most everyone dies regardless of whether they are saved or not saved.
“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation.” (2 Corinthians 7:10).
Peter said to Simon, “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.”
If Peter believed as you did, then he would have never said to repent to God and pray that he may be forgiven for his sin.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess of our sins he is faithful and just to forgive of us our sins.
This is in context to forsaking sin in 1 John 1:7 that says that by doing so (i.e. walking in the light of the Lord) the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin.
We also see that the Prodigal Son was willing to repent (Which is a part of his restoration to his father), too. In other words, when the son went prodigal and then he later returned home, his father said to his son that he was dead and is now alive again.
Jason0047 said:
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
HatGuy said:
...we're dealing with the nation of Israel here, we're not dealing with individuals and their eternal destiny.
No. Nations are made up of individuals. If not, then they wouldn't exist. If God is judging a nation he judges them by the majority of people living there. A call of repentance for a nation starts with one individual and then goes on from there. God was calling the Ninevites to repent, and they were a really large city or people. But Scripture records how the Ninevites repented as a whole.
Jesus cried over the city of Jerusalem. He said,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.” (Matthew 23:37 NLT).
Jesus was not talking to some national entity as if it was a monster like creature. Jesus was talking to the people as a whole.
But Matthew 23:37 proves the same thing that Micah 3:4 says. Their sin or unbelief separated them from God. If God hides his face from you, how is their salvation? To say that Micah 3:4 is not talking about salvation is a huge strain against what the text says. God will hide His face from you and yet He will still save you? Sorry, I am not buying that. It goes against the plain normal reading of the text. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
HatGuy said:
Micah 4 then moves into a promise of salvation.
"6 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“I will gather the lame;
I will assemble the exiles
and those I have brought to grief.
7 I will make the lame my remnant,
those driven away a strong nation.
The Lord will rule over them in Mount Zion
from that day and forever.
8 As for you, watchtower of the flock,
stronghold of Daughter Zion,
the former dominion will be restored to you;
kingship will come to Daughter Jerusalem.”
See - God brought them to grief and then restores them. The bringing of them to grief was for the purposes of repentance and restoration.
As for Micah 4: Yes, Israel will one day repent as a nation, but that does not mean sin (which is another way of saying unbelief) did not separate them from God in the past or in the present. For sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); And there is a law or command telling us that we have to believe on Jesus Christ. That is why those who do not believe on Jesus are condemned in John chapter 3. It is a breaking of God’s Command that is very serious and proves yet again that sin is separation from God.
Jason0047 said:
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
HatGuy said:
And then he restores them. He does not hide his face forever.
There's a clear theme throughout the Old Testament that God's wrath is remedial and for the purposes of restoration, yet his love and acceptance of Israel is never broken. We can say that sin separates, but not forever, because God always finds a way to bring people to restoration and repentance.
I partly agree with you here. I believe God sent Israel into captivity to make them repent. But I disagree with you on that God always finds a way to restore His people. Paul says that the Jews were cut off because of unbelief. So this does not mean that the people of Israel as a whole were walking correctly with God throughout all points in time. These people of Israel are made up of individuals and I believe on a national level each generation’s status of right standing with God in the afterlife was not always the same.
Also, the fact that they were restored later does not mean that they were saved during the time that they did not repent.
Oh, and I am not doubting that God can restore a believer (who has backslidden into a life of sin) back to the faith to the saving of their soul. James 5:19-20 talks about this. But that still does not negate the truth that sin is the cause for our separation between us and God.
Jason0047 said:
Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish
HatGuy said:
Now we're starting to get closer to individual salvation. Yes, unless you repent, you will perish. But you have not established that sin leads a Christian to hell with this scripture, as repentance in this context leads to regeneration, and regeneration means the sinner has become contrite and always in repentance. (It is a 'baptism of repentance' to show that people are living in that repentance).
So a person’s free will in regards to salvation is taken away after they accept Christ?
I am sorry, I just do not see that.
I see Ananias and Sapphira as an example that we as believers need to fear the Lord because they did a horrible sin (like lying to the Holy Ghost).
Perish means exactly that.
It means to perish in the afterlife because all people die.
In addition, Jesus also says,
27 “But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Luke 3:27-28).
Jason0047 said:
John 3:20
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved
HatGuy said:
Let's quote this one in context.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
What is the 'truth' we are to live by? It's clear as day: that Jesus is God's one and only Son. And that we are to believe this and Jesus himself. Then, whoever believes, has eternal life.
What Jesus is saying is clear: the light exposes the darkness, but you must come into it anyway, and then when it is exposed you must believe to be saved.
No. That is a wrong translation. The King James says that their deeds will be
reproved in verse 20 and it is not the word
exposed. Meaning, if they are
reproved that means they would have repented of their sins.
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” (John 3:20).
For all who do evil hate the light. For all men loved the darkness rather than the light unless their deeds are reproved (i.e. meaning unless they repented of their sins whereby their deeds will then be brought forth by God doing the good work thru them).
Also, “belief” in Jesus here is more than just a belief on Jesus the person but it is a belief on everything He taught and commanded us to do. If not, then one is believing in another Jesus.
Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
Jason0047 said:
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him
HatGuy said:
You've quoted the blind man that was healed, not Jesus.
Nowhere did I state that it was Jesus. I just quoted John 9:31 under a general list of verses that show how sin is separation from God.
HatGuy said:
From verse 30:
30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.
31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.
33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
The man is reminding them of what they believe, not what Jesus teaches.
No. You are making the text say something that it does not say. The man that Jesus healed did not say that he was reminding his accusers of what they believe. In verse 31, the man said… “we” and he does not say, “you say.”
In fact, the man who was healed struck a nerve with his accusers by saying that God does not listen to sinners but he listens to the Godly person who does his will because they said to the man (Jesus healed) that he was steeped in sin at birth and how dare he to lecture them on such matters. So your view on this passage is simply not true and does not make any sense in light of what it actually says.
HatGuy said:
This is the issue with posting tons of scriptures but not actually considering their context. It's a shotgun approach with very little value. It's far better to slow down and use the scriptures effectively - quality rather than quantity in this case.
Well, I disagree with the majority of your conclusions and think they actually go against what the Bible says plainly. Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15). Yet, you have to change the plain straight forward reading of that. 1 John 3:15 says he that hates his brother is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. Again, this is pretty straight forward sounding. Only if one does not want to believe such verses is where one will run into a problem.
Anyways, I pray you will see where I am coming from.
May God’s love and blessings be upon you.
With loving kindness to you in Christ.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
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