I think you misunderstand what OSAS believers believe. OSAS believers believe in obeying Jesus BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM, not because "if we don't we will be punished with eternal damnation".
Although most will not admit it, OSAS is similar to Calvinism because it denies "
free will." How so? Well, many OSAS proponents essentially are saying "
free will" in regards to salvation does not exist after you are saved (Whereas the Calvinist believes "
free will" does not exist whatsoever in regards to salvation because they believe a person is regenerated before they are saved). Anyways, "
free will" does not exist aftewards for the OSAS proponent because they believe the saint will always do good in time. But if this is true then how does one explain
Matthew 6:15? Was Jesus speaking to believers or unbelievers in such a verse? For would it do any good for an unbeliever to forgive if they did not accept Christ? Surely not; And Matthew 6:15 clearly says that if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. So it's a condition. But OSAS believers think that no true believer can walk away from God. Hence, once a person checks in, they can't check out. God has forever forced His love upon them for their one time decision (whether they like it or not) or they have been forced changed by God (against their free will) whereby they can no longer refuse Him. Then why doesn't God just force save everyone? Does a one time decision for Christ truly make that person better if they were to turn around and then do evil? Surely not. Jesus is in the habit of transforming lives (with a person's free will cooperation of course).
Anyways, in my many years of discussion in regards to this topic, I have discovered that there are different levels of OSAS.
OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven. I have talked to real people who believe this. One of them admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and still be saved in the process of doing so.
Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin; However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire. I have talked to a few who believe this. They are harder to spot, but they are basically still saying you can do some kind of evil and be saved (although it just a little bit of evil or sin in proportion to living a holy life).
OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with. This view is wrong because it makes it makes you doubt the promises of God like
1 John 1:9 and
James 5:19-20.
Another bad doctrine that is tied to OSAS and is popular is:
Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD)
This is a wrong teaching that there are two or more gospels under the New Testament. This wrong doctrine was created no doubt for people to deny the holy teachings of Jesus Christ. Which is popular among Classic OSAS proponents. For Paul's words on holiness are easier to twist than Jesus' words. However, Paul essentially said in
1 Timothy 6:3-4 that any man who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.
The problem with OSAS is that it ignores the standard of morality set forth in God's Word. Where the Bible says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15), the OSAS proponent changes the plain straight forward meaning of this verse into something else (that doesn't even make any sense).
Superscritter said:
After we are saved, OSAS believers believe that repenting of sins is asking for parental forgiveness, not asking to be saved from hell (being saved).
You are not teaching me anything new. This is how the OSAS Proponent explains chapters 1-3 in John's 1st epistle. They think asking for forgiveness in 1 John 1:9 deals with restoring fellowship and not salvation. I have talked extensively with other OSAS proponents on these three chapters and they have not really brought forth a verse that says that these chapters are dealing exclusively with a break in fellowship and not a loss of salvation. In fact, just read the verses for yourself and they will tell you that they are dealing with salvation.
1 John 1:7 is one of the key verses.
1 John 1:7 says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light as he is in the light is in reference to obeying God's Commands. For 1 John 1:6 is the opposite contrast of 1 John 1:7. It says, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). Now, lets compare 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 2:4. 1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So darkness is a contrast with not keeping his commandments. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is the transgression of the law." Okay, so we have these facts:
(a) 1 John 1:7 says, Walking in the light as He is in the light is keeping the commandments. Yet, in the other verses in John's epistle it says not keeping his commands makes us a liar and it is sin (See 1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 3:4).
(b) 1 John 1:6 says the same thing 1 John 2:4 does. Darkness is another way of saying not keeping his commandments or sin (1 John 3:4).
(c) Both 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 say we lie and do not the truth if we say we know him and walk in darkness or do not keep his commandments.
But if we were to look at the rest of 1 John 1:7, it says, if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is keeping God's commandments; And it says that by walking in this light in Christ the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
Note: You cannot be forgiven of sin without the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. We walk in the light as He is in the light so as to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us of all sin.
Still not convinced?
Let's look at 1 John 3:8. It says he that commits sin is of the devil.
Yet, 1 John 3:7 says, he that does righteousness is righteous.
1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Here it is. The bombshell has been dropped and should shatter any false idea of OSAS. He that does not righteousness and or does not love his brother is not of God. It contrasts this with the children of the devil (cf. 1 John 3:8).
Then it makes it even more clear with 1 John 3:15. It says he that hates his brother is like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So the sin of hating your brother is enough to not have eternal life abiding in you. The Scriptures are very plain and clear on this matter here. There is no OSAS or a belief that says "Sin cannot separate you from God."
Superscritter said:
Take a moment to consider this, then it will help you to understand how OSAS believers interpret all the other verses that ask Christians to repent. If we are truly to be able to do good works, and have Jesus hear our prayers, then we must have a good relationship with God - that's why we do good works, and repent of our sins - it is out of wanting to please God, not out of fear of hell if we don't obey. The key difference is motivation, OSAS believers are motivated out of love for God, non-OSAS believers are motivated out of not losing salvation.
This is simply not true. It is both. Most (and not all) new believers are motivated out of both fear and in love to obey God. However, the new believer does not have perfect love yet because they have not learned to perfectly love in the way that Jesus tells them to love yet. For Jesus say if you love me, keep my commandments. But when a new believer first comes to Christ, they will have that joy of being saved and in knowing His love (if they repented of their sins). They will be grateful for the love of what Christ has done for them and they will want to love the Lord in return (By what He has done for them). For they know that if they sin, they can confess their sins to Him and be forgiven, not as a means as a license to sin, but as a way of overcoming sin (with the Lord's help).
Back in 1992, I remember when I first got saved when I accepted Christ. I felt the joy, peace, and love of God. I wanted to love Christ in return so much for the love He had given to me. But that did not mean I shouldn't also fear Him, though. Job 28:28 says "the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding." Have you departed from evil and then gained understanding as a result?
Scripture says, ""And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear
him [i.e. Christ] who is able to destroy both soul and body in
Gehenna [i.e. the Lake of Fire]." (
Matthew 10:28 WEY).
Note: Brackets in blue are my commentaries to the text.
Anyways, we are told by Jesus from this verse to fear Him (and not those who kill the body) because he has the power to destroy both our souls and our bodies into the Lake of Fire (whereby one's soul and body will experience some kind of pain (and possible duration of punishment) with both the soul and body being utterly destroyed or erased from existence by it's flames). Jesus is speaking to believers here because he says we are not to fear those who can kill the body. Those who kill the body are those individuals of this world and not of God's Kingdom.
Superscritter said:
Salvation (to an OSAS believer) is like signing adoption papers. Once adopted, a child cannot be un-adopted. But a child can fall out of favor with their parent.
Actually it is not
just about adoption, but about it is about whether or not they are dead or alive. For we see the prodigal son was considered dead to the father when he was prodigal because when he returned home his father said that he was was once dead and is now alive again. This parable is speaking in spiritual terms of course. Scripture also says the children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). If you think this was just talking about Israel exclusively, then you need to read Romans 11:22 that says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in
his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Verse 21 says, For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:21). Meaning, if God did not spare Israel, take heed that He also spare not you (i.e. the Gentiles). The Jews were cut off because of unbelief. Granted, they will repent as a nation in the future sometime shortly before Christ's return. But the point is that Gentile believers can be cut off by not believing the Scriptures that says that one cannot abide in those sins that lead unto the second death (See Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).
For example: Is a dead son still a part of your living family? Surely not. No family keeps their dead son hanging around. They do not eat with a dead son at the dinner table or play basket ball with their dead son. Only sons who are alive can participate in family events.
The Bible says that Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all that offend (sin) and which do iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire. For it is written,
41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " (Matthew 13:41-42).
Also, 1 John 2:29 says,
"ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."
Meaning, this is how we identify the one who is truly born of God.
For again, 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Believers who have contempt for other believers who strive to focus on obeying God's Commands means that there is a serious problem going on. They are seeking to establish their own righteousness and not the righteousness put forth by God's Commands.
Superscritter said:
Therefore they repent of their sins to restore their relationship with Jesus.
Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.
#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
Superscritter said:
Everything is done out of a love for God.
No, not everything is done out of love for Him in the OSAS belief because they teach that you can sin and still be saved. Sinning or saying that you are going to sin at some future date (because you cannot help but to sin) is not done out of love for Him. So this would not be true. You are not doing everything out of love for Him if you are also sinning. This is why Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). But you really do not believe those words because you think you can break His commandments and still love Him. Yet, Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments.
Superscritter said:
We repent of our sins, do good works - all out of love for Jesus because we are grateful to Him and love Him. This is what makes Christianity unique - because Christians are motivated from a love of God, instead of a fear of punishment.
Again, in most cases, Christians are motivated by both fear and love in the beginning. In time, when they perfect their walk with God in this life, "perfect loves casts out fear" (1 John 4:18). You cannot be made perfect in love if you are not keeping Christ's commandments. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.
Superscritter said:
Every other religion states: "obey or go to hell". Non-OSAS belief says the same thing. You quoted "perfect love casts out all fear", which you interpret to mean "first we fear, then that turns to love".
Perfect love. Not just ... "love." There is a difference between love and perfect love. New believers can both love and fear in their walk with God. They fear God in the sense that they will repent of their sins (i.e. they will confess and forsake sin) as a result of their destruction in hell, and they love God because Jesus died upon the cross to save them. They are grateful. To say Non-OSAS believers are not grateful is just a false accusation that is not true.
Superscritter said:
OSAS belivers interpret that to mean "we fear because we don't understand that we can't lose salvation; but perfect love - like understanding the pure love between child and parent - casts out all fear because a child can never be un-adopted. Once a Christian understands they can't lose salvation, they have no more fear and can serve God without guilt".
You are just thinking things that are outside of Scripture. You are taking one verse out of context to believe what you want to see.
But the context of 1 John 4:18 says this,
1 John 4:20
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
So the context is in righteous living and not in what you suggest (that cannot be found within the text).
Superscritter said:
Think about this: how do children get saved? Most Christians believe that young children are automatically saved because they cannot wilfully accept Jesus. Are they not saved by grace regardless of their sin? Same as Abraham and David. All these people are NOT saved by non-OSAS thinking. OSAS thinking easily supports young children, Abraham and David being able to be saved in spite of sin, because it is not works that saved any of those people - it is Jesus' perfect sacrifice.
Actually, babies being saved proves that OSAS is false. Babies are unaware of any of God's laws so as to sin. While sin was imputed to them by Adam, Jesus Christ had reversed the curse. Thru Jesus, everyone can be made alive. Seeing babies cannot sin and they are innocent, Jesus saves them automatically. Yet, when they grow up and fall into sin, they are separated from God and they need to repent of their sins and be spiritually born again to be saved again. Sin is what separated that person from God. Repentance is what restores not only fellowship but salvation, as well.
Superscritter said:
At what age does a child become saved by grace, and then suddenly at the age of responsibility they go to hell if they sin just once after accepting Jesus (if non-OSAS belief is true)? I find that threshold line hard to draw.
So you believe that everyone is saved then since the time they were a baby?
Surely not. A baby grows up into an adult whereby they sin. This sin separates them between God. They need to repent and get their hearts right with the Lord.
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