Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

Clare73 said:

Because not all faith is true faith. . .true faith perseveres to the end, the same cannot be said for all counterfeit faith, as in Mt 7:22-23.

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And God, alone, knows who will persevere to the end and who will not, who has this "true faith" and who does not.

fhansen said:

And God, alone, knows who will persevere to the end and who will not, who has this "true faith" and who does not

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Not quite. . .

And "the Holy Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Ro 8:16)

Clare73 said:

Not quite. . .

And "the Holy Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Ro 8:16)

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Sure, and many may think so... Fruit, good fruit, is the truest evidence.

fhansen said:

Sure, and many may think so...

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Only the spiritually honest know.

fhansen said:

Fruit, good fruit, is the truest evidence.

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Counterfeit faith can also do good works.

Clare73 said:

Counterfeit faith can do good works.

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True enough-the fruit must be authentic, stemming from love. And our subjective feelings can be counterfeit as well. People fool themselves all the time, "The heart is deceitful", etc

fhansen said:

True enough-the fruit must be authentic, stemming from love. And our subjective feelings can be counterfeit as well. People fool themselves all the time, "The heart is deceitful", etc

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Which does not nullify Ro 8:16.

Clare73 said:

Which does not nullify Ro 8:16.

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It means that self-examination, reflection, are always in order. So the surest way to check ourselves for alignment of Rom 8:16 is still a quite practical one: what fruit do we have? If we're one of His then good fruit will follow. In fact, Rom 8:12-14 speak of the neceesaity of one aspect of good fruit.

fhansen said:

It means that self-examination, reflection, are always in order. So the surest way to check ourselves for alignment of Rom 8:16 is still a quite practical one: what fruit do we have? If we're one of His then good fruit will follow. In fact, Rom 8:12-14 speak of the neceesaity of one aspect of good fruit.

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What do you mean by "fruit?"

Practical, but not conclusive. . .

Clare73 said:

What do you mean by "fruit?"

Practical, but not conclusive. . .

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The definition of good fruit is pretty well known. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, overcome sin, walk justly, counsel the depressed, visit the imprisoned, care for the sick, give hope to the hopeless, accept the downtrodden, forgive those who trespass against us, spread the good news of God's goodness and mercy and love and promise of eternal life. Love as well as we can, IOW, as He gives us the grace to do so.

fhansen said:

The definition of good fruit is pretty well known. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, overcome sin, walk justly, counsel the depressed, visit the imprisoned, care for the sick, give hope to the hopeless, accept the downtrodden, forgive those who trespass against us, spread the good news of God's goodness and mercy and love and promise of eternal life. Love as well as we can, IOW, as He gives us the grace to do so.

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The unregenerate can do most of those.

Clare73 said:

The unregenerate can do most of those.

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Ok? The Bible tells us that there's an authentic and an inauthentic, hypocritical, way to do good or practice righteousness. So which should we assume that Jesus is talking about when He directs us to produce good fruit as in John 15, for example?

fhansen said:

Ok? The Bible tells us that there's an authentic and an inauthentic, hypocritical, way to do good or practice righteousness. So which should we assume that Jesus is talking about when He directs us to produce good fruit as in John 15, for example?

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Folks can do good works (feed the poor, care for the sick) without the enablement of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit to which Jesus is referring is spiritual fruit with the enablement of the Holy Spirit.

Clare73 said:

Folks can do good works (feed the poor, care for the sick) without the enablement of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit to which Jesus is referring is spiritual fruit with the enablement of the Holy Spirit.

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Ok! Glad we agree then. So now you know what kind of fruit we must have, and that gives sure evidence that we're His.

fhansen said:

Ok! Glad we agree then. So now you know what kind of fruit we must have, and that gives sure evidence that we're His.

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Yes, obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16, 19) is the fruit we must have.

Clare73 said:

Yes, obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16, 19) is the fruit we must have.

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AND NO ONE Explained what the fruit of the Spirit really is !

read Gal 5:2

But I also believe we should be teaching what Paul preached and become IMITATORS of Paul as written in 1 Cor 11:1

and also 1 Cor 3:5-9 and as verse 6 Paul PLANTED and Apollos watered <

This is what PAUL planted as a FARMER , Rom 16:25 and 26 the revelation of the MYSTERY .

And verse 26 having been made known to all the GENTILES for OBEDIENCE of FAITH .

And also a killer verse in 1 Tim 1:4 says NOR to give attention to FABLES and ENDLESS GENEALOGIES which cause QESTIONING

, rather than God's DISPENSATION // OIKONOMIA the ONE by FAITH !!

dan p

Clare73 said:

Yes, obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16, 19) is the fruit we must have.

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Yes, and the good fruit we must have manifests itself in many ways; it's driven by love of God and neighbor which encompasses, among other things, the fruits of the Spirit, specific virtues and dispositions in their cases that motivate us to act, for the good of others, in specific ways. some of which I listed. Good fruit is mentioned in general in Col 1:10
"so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,"

And for the praise of God in Heb 13:15-16:
"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased."

"Good fruit" is mentioned in many places in the bible, several times in Matthew, Luke, and John as well as other places that simply mention the good that we must do, as per Matt 25: 36-41 for example..

Clare73 said:

There is saving faith in Jesus Christ, which cannot apostasize, being kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5), and
there is counterfeit faith which can apostasize; e.g., Judas.

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We are responsible to keep our faith unto the end. You put the responsibility solely in God's hands that He puts on us.

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

We are responsible to hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. Nowhere does it say that God does that for us. Notice that word "if" there. That word would not be there if it was entirely up to God as to whether or not we held our original conviction to the very end. That isn't a certainty because it's our responsibility to keep the faith that we put in Christ in the first place until the end.

Clare73 said:

It is the saving faith that is kept by the power of God.

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We are responsible to submit to the power of God in order for our faith to be kept unto the end.

Clare73 said:

Because not all faith is true faith. . .as in Mt 7:22-23.
The "if" excludes counterfeit faith.

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You are not even reading the text carefully at all. Nowhere are people with counterfeit faith in view in Hebrews 3:14. It's addressing true believers and saying that we will be saved in the end if we keep the faith that we originally put in Christ until the end. Those with counterfeit faith have no conviction that they need to keep until the end.

Clare73 said:

What is the difference between something "appearing" and something "being seen?"

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Clare73 said:

No one can even see the kingdom of God until he is born again (Jn 3:3-5), even though it appears in Christ (Mt 12:28).

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Why do you change the context of scripture? That is not at all what Titus 2:11 is saying. The NIV translation far better illustrates what the verse is saying which is that God graciously offers salvation to all people. That lines up with the fact that God wants all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and with the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (all people - 1 John 2:1-2).

Romans 8 said:

When I became a born again Christian over 5 years ago, I loved coming to this forum to learn about the Bible. The topic of OSAS was the topic which significantly held my interest. I went back and forth on the issue, and I really wanted to believe OSAS is true, for peace of mind. Thing is, I could never get peace in letting this doctrine settle,and I believe it's for this reason: OSAS is a false doctrine meant to make us lazy, useless in the body of Christ, and possibly even send one to hell. Without posting every verse in the Bible which supports my belief, I will post this one: Matthew 24:13 says: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

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Hello Romans8, I am sorry to hear that the Word of God has not given you peace in regards to your salvation. But there's still hope to be found, it is not too late to actually trust in Jesus Christ and his Sacrifice in your stead. That is, His taking upon Himself your sins. That is the central issue I would suggest be a focus of, not reading about, not listening to teachers that say what you want to hear, but your own study in His Word.

The primary reason why the LOST (loss of salvation teachers) conclude Christ cannot save them apart from their own contribution to the Work of Atonement is because they have never been taught to understand Scripture in context. The proof text you offer above? It deals with the Tribulation, and is specific to Jews (though the same truth applies to Gentiles that will be saved in those days.

Romans 8 said:

If you believe in the doctrine of OSAS, I beg you to reconsider.

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You want me to reconsider trusting in Christ? Not a chance.

If I had to trust in what I do for Eternal Redemption—I don't stand a chance.

No one does.

Romans 8 said:

By negating OSAS you do not automatically get pigeonholed as one who subscribes to "Lordship Salvation", as this is also a false doctrine. However, you will see that maintaining your relationship (abiding in Christ) is necessary for Christians in order to finish the race. You CAN be born again, yet end up in hell because of your apostasy. Do not be fooled nor lazy about your relationship with God. While it's not a religion, it is a relationship, albeit your most important one and it's so easy to drop the ball in this Laodecian church age we find ourselves. Renew your relationship with God every morning and read His Word everyday. I want all of us to make it and not take our relationship with Him for granted. That means NO deliberate sin, as continual deliberate sinning puts Jesus back on the cross and there is no sacrifice left for us...

Hebrews 10:26-27 says, For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

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You might try listening to some teachings of the one that brought about the term "Lordship Salvation" (a response to his teachings). John MacArthur. While I don't agree with everything he teaches, he is certainly solid in regards to the Doctrine of Eternal Security.

In regards to this proof text, again, it's obvious the context of Hebrews chapters 7-10 has not been understood. Let's open it up a bit:

Hebrews 10:26-29​

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26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


I recommend to you that you read chapters 7-10 a few times and familiarize what the writer is teaching about. Let me ask you this: have you ever done so? Have you ever actually studied these chapters? Or just repeated a few verses that you think substantiate the doctrine you've adopted? Answer truthfully—to yourself. I already know the answer.

The thrust of this state3ment follows a detailed contrast between the (Covenant of) Law and the New Covenant. The purpose is to persuade Hebrew people who have been born and bred in the Religion of the Jews to adopt the New Covenant by embracing Christ.

Those who think it is the writer telling Christians they're going to lose their salvation if they sin again miss that point.

Notice in v.28:

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Here is the contrast: Moses' Law. The Covenant of Law. That's the primary issue in this and the preceding three chapters.

So what he states is this: Those who rejected God's means of relationship under the Law were bad, and they were put to death. It just took a few witnesses of their sin—

What sin? Well, the sin of rejecting God's declared will. Kind of like Adam and Eve did. So let's see who these rejecters are contrasted with:


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


See that? Those rejecting the Covenant of Law were put to death, how much worse will it be for those who reject ...

1. Jesus Christ,

2. The Blood of the Covenant (see chapter nine and the beginning of this chapter), or in other words, the shed blood of Jesus Christ by which the New Covenant was inaugurated,

3. The vicarious nature of the death of Christ.

4. And the Spirit of Grace (see John 14-17).

So the one question I always have to ask the LOST is this: why would you consider those who reject Jesus Christ, HIs sacrifice, and the Comforter ... to be Christians?

Romans 8 said:

Of course we aren't perfect

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Actually, we are:

Hebrews 10:14-16​

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14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The perfection spoken of here refers to completion. And what the writer states is that, in regards to the remission of sins, we have been made complete through the death of Christ in our stead. Note vv.15-16, again, the New Covenant is the focus. And again, I recommend you study these chapters, so you too might have the peace that comes with trusting in Christ rather than works that, no matter how wonderful—are still going to amount to filthy rags when compared to the holy and righteous Lord.

Especially when we consider His sacrifice.

If it were not so tragic that we have people who may or may be Christians trying to place their ragged efforts next to His, it might be humorous.

But let's back up a little more:

Hebrews 10:1-5​

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1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The sacrifices of the Law, just like the sacrifices of well-meaning but deluded Christians—can never make one perfect.

Look back at v.14 to see what did. Did, not will do.

The sacrifices of the Law did in fact bring remission of sins, but it was a temporal and temporary remission (forgiveness). BEcause of that, they had to continually be offered year after year.

They could not bring the matter of remission of sin to completion.

The good news is that Good News makes it clear that Jesus Christ did exactly that with One Sacrifice. My point being, we can trust that Christ has saved us.

Isn't that the foundational truth of salvation in Christ?

Romans 8 said:

Of course we aren't perfect and the Bible tells us that if we say we don't sin, we are liars.

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Because, as one member has already pointed out, we yet await the glorification of our bodies. Those who think they will live sinlessly in corrupt flesh have deluded themselves and ignore this very simple teaching of John.

Romans 8 said:

However, there's a difference between slipping up, and repenting, and living in sin and, "Oops, Jesus forgive me, Oops, I did it again Jesus, Oops, oops, oops",all in the span of a day or a few days or weeks.

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Bingo: a life of sin indicates a lack of salvation. Let me ask you this, if you know somebody who believes in the Doctrine of Eternal Security, do you see them living a life of practicing sin? How many of them do you know?

Romans 8 said:

There's a difference between a Christian and a disciple and Jesus want us to be the latter.

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Sorry, no. All Christians are learners, whether they want to be or not.

But here is another aspect of salvation that many are confused about: they think the disciples of Christ were Christians. The fact is, there were no Christians until the Day of Pentecost, when the Comforter was given.

John 16:7-9​

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7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

When Christ is teaching the disciples here, they are not yet born-again believers. They are, like Christ, Jews living under the Law (read Hebrews 14:14-16 again).

Galatians 4:4-6​

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4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


There was a specific point in time when God sent the Son. He was made under the Law to redeem them that were under the Law, they they might receive the Spirit of Grace spoken about in Hebrews 10:29.

Unregenerate people you present as Christians, when in fact they are Christ-rejecting Jews.

Romans 8 said:

God bless brothers and sisters, finish the race and will see you in heaven soon!

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I hope this doesn't sound harsh, it isn't meant to be. But I encourage you to study the Book of Hebrews. It will help you to understand your salvation better because it helps us to clarify in our minds that there is a difference between God's administration in this Age as compared to all previous Ages.

You can trust Christ for your salvation. As I said, that is a foundational truth of salvation. If we are not actually trusting in His sacrifice, but in our own works, we denigrate the magnitude of the Cross.

Hebrews 9:12-15​

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12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

If you read carefully, you will see that He is the One Who obtained Eternal Redemption for us, and not only us, but for all Old Testament Saints who also placed their faith in God (v.15).

The sanctification achieved through the shedding of the blood of bulls and goats was temporal, and incomplete.

The sanctification of the Christian through the Sacrifice that was complete, and brought completion is eternal.

God bless.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are not even reading the text carefully at all. Nowhere are people with counterfeit faith in view in Hebrews 3:14.

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You might want to look a little closer:

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

In view is the Covenant of Law. Moses was faithful, but those with counterfeit faith were not.


6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

While the LOST (loss of salvation teachers) read this and do not see unbelievers, but born-again believers, the question I have to ask is, have they never read Hebrews?


7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


The writer is speaking about Hebrew brethren. That's not up for debate, it's just a fact.

And what he is doing is telling his Hebrew audience that they be careful not to replicate the error of their forebears in the desert. Throughout the Epistle, the writer will contrast the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant. It is his goal to encourage those among the Hebrew people who have not yet progressed from the Covenant of Law to embrace the New Covenant. When you read Hebrews, we need to be aware of this, or, we will end up yanking proof-texts out of their context to support doctrines contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless.

Hoping2 said:

You make it sound like there is sin "in Christ".
Is that right ?
If so, I cannot agree.

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Are you suggesting there is sinlessness for believers?

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

If I were among the LOST (loss of salvation teachers), I'd be hoping too. Thankfully, the Word of God has given us enough to understand that, while we will not live sinlessly while we are in this body, the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment. It is sad to think that so many seem not to grasp something so simple as trusting in Christ for salvation.

So, if you don't mind, can you tell me, have you sinned since you've been saved?

God bless.