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Read John 15:1-17 and you should see that bearing fruit involves loving others and doing things for others. It involves doing good works, in other words. Repentance and faith are not good works that you do for others.This is an opinion but not a fact. What informs this opinion?
You're taking that far too literally. Do you never consider context? Are you unable to brush your teeth without Christ? To eat food? Drink water? Is He saying we can literally do nothing without Him? No, that's not what He's saying. The context is that we can't bear fruit without Him because we need Him to work through us.From the phrase, “Without me you can do nothing.”
I agree with everything you said here except he wrote that in chapter 3, not chapter 2. Just 4 sentences after he said that the natural man can’t understand the things of God he told the Corinthians that they can’t understand it either because they were still carnal in nature even tho they were saved and had believed the gospel. So obviously Paul was not saying that the natural man cannot accept the gospel because they were still acting like natural men. Furthermore every Christian who ever lived was a natural man before they heard the gospel and obviously not all of them weren’t able to believe it. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it.Nope. That is not what it says. Instead, Paul indicated that the natural man cannot understand the deep things of God, which does not include the gospel. Read all of 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 for context. Paul referred to immature Christians as "babes in Christ" and said they were carnal and acted just like the natural man. So, you can't equate the state of the natural man with being dead in sins when even those babes in Christ were called carnal and they were acting just like the natural man because they were not relying on the Holy Spirit for understanding.
Does the Holy Spirit ignore context?Yes, you actually did. Here is the quote: “You need to learn how to interpret scripture in context.” It is the Holy Sprirt that interprets not
me.
I disagree, I don’t think it’s the works that are actually taken into consideration but the motivation behind the works that is being considered. Hence 1 Corinthians 2:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 13:3.Read John 15:1-17 and you should see that bearing fruit involves loving others and doing things for others. It involves doing good works, in other words. Repentance and faith are not good works that you do for others.
I wasn't intending to say he wrote that in chapter 2. You misunderstood what I said, but I should have been more clear. What I was intending to say is that 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 establishes the context of verse 14, showing that Paul was talking particularly about spiritually discerning the deeper things (1 Cor 2:10). And then in chapter 3 he shows that even those he called "babes in Christ" were not able to discern those things, which he equated with the meat or solid food of God's word in contrast with the only part of God's word that those babes in Christ could understand, which Paul referred to as milk.I agree with everything you said here except he wrote that in chapter 3, not chapter 2.
Right.Just 4 sentences after he said that the natural man can’t understand the things of God he told the Corinthians that they can’t understand it either because they were still carnal in nature even tho they were saved and had believed the gospel. So obviously Paul was not saying that the natural man cannot accept the gospel because they were still acting like natural men. Furthermore every Christian who ever lived was a natural man before they heard the gospel and obviously not all of them weren’t able to believe it. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it.
I'm not saying otherwise. Read what I said again. It involves loving others. So, the motivation for the good works needs to be love for others.I disagree, I don’t think it’s the works that are actually taken into consideration but the motivation behind the works that is being considered. Hence 1 Corinthians 2:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 13:3.
Read 1 Corinthians 2:9-3:3. What Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is something that even the carnal "babes in Christ" could not discern, so how could he have been including the gospel in the deeper things that the natural man can't understand? Those babes in Christ were carnal and looked at things like the natural man without using spiritual discernment, and, yet, they understood the gospel or else they wouldn't have been said to be "in Christ".The Gospel is the deepest thing of God. It is what the entire Bible is about. There is nothing in what you said that establishes your premise?
I don't follow you. This is how I understand the passage.Read 1 Corinthians 2:9-3:3. What Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is something that even the carnal "babes in Christ" could not discern, so how could he have been including the gospel in the deeper things that the natural man can't understand? Those babes in Christ were carnal and looked at things like the natural man without using spiritual discernment, and, yet, they understood the gospel or else they wouldn't have been said to be "in Christ".
The Holy Spirit is the context.Does the Holy Spirit ignore context?
Romans 8 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.2 Timothy 2:12. Was Paul not saved when he wrote it? Would he be saved if Christ was to deny him?
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being" is from Acts 17:28You're taking that far too literally. Do you never consider context? Are you unable to brush your teeth without Christ? To eat food? Drink water? Is He saying we can literally do nothing without Him? No, that's not what He's saying. The context is that we can't bear fruit without Him because we need Him to work through us.
It only mentions loving others. Would you not include the fruit of the spirit. Would you not include the works of God? It is a lot more than doing. It is being. The doing comes from being just as grapes come from grapevine branches. Grapevine branches are not made by grapes.Read John 15:1-17 and you should see that bearing fruit involves loving others and doing things for others. It involves doing good works, in other words. Repentance and faith are not good works that you do for others.
Bearing fruit involves being a branch connected to the vine.Read John 15:1-17 and you should see that bearing fruit involves loving others and doing things for others. It involves doing good works, in other words. Repentance and faith are not good works that you do for others.
Not a single person has spiritual wisdom before they believe the gospel. Everyone has to accept the gospel before they can receive spiritual discernment.I don't follow you. This is how I understand the passage.
1 Corinthians 2:9–3:3 is part of Paul’s teaching to the church in Corinth about true wisdom and spiritual maturity.
Summary by sections:
2:9–16 — God's wisdom is revealed by the Spirit: Paul explains that human wisdom can't comprehend what God has prepared for those who love Him. Instead, this wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit, who knows the deep things of God. The natural (non-spiritual) person can't understand spiritual truths because they require spiritual discernment.
Key idea:
True understanding of God comes through the Spirit, not through human intellect alone.
3:1–3 — Spiritual immaturity in Corinth: Paul criticizes the Corinthian believers for still being "infants in Christ." They are not yet ready for solid spiritual food because they’re acting in jealousy and division, which shows they are still worldly.
Key idea:
The Corinthians’ behavior shows they haven’t matured spiritually—even though they have access to the Spirit, they are still living by human standards.
Overall message:
Paul contrasts spiritual wisdom (from God, through the Spirit) with worldly thinking. He encourages the church to grow up in their faith and move beyond shallow divisions and human pride.
But verse 2 shows that not all branches that are attached to Christ will bear fruit. Some don’t and are cut off by The Father.Bearing fruit involves being a branch connected to the vine.
Jesus is not talking about repentance in John 15, He’s talking about bearing fruit. He doesn’t say a single word about repentance in the entire chapter. And why would He? He’s talking to His 11 faithful apostles who have been following Him for 3 years. John 15 takes place in the upper room after Judas had left the group to go and betray Jesus. Why would Jesus mention repentance to men who were already believers? The point of the message was to tell them not to turn away once He’s gone.So is that earning our salvation in part? Is your position that while I was dead in sins and tresspasses I could hear God and obey his command to humble myself and repent? Could I, being apart from Christ, choose to obey him or could I do nothing?
Have to be careful with OSAS, as it can lead to easy-believism.When I became a born again Christian over 5 years ago, I loved coming to this forum to learn about the Bible. The topic of OSAS was the topic which significantly held my interest. I went back and forth on the issue, and I really wanted to believe OSAS is true, for peace of mind. Thing is, I could never get peace in letting this doctrine settle,and I believe it's for this reason: OSAS is a false doctrine meant to make us lazy, useless in the body of Christ, and possibly even send one to hell. Without posting every verse in the Bible which supports my belief, I will post this one: Matthew 24:13 says: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
If you believe in the doctrine of OSAS, I beg you to reconsider. By negating OSAS you do not automatically get pigeonholed as one who subscribes to "Lordship Salvation", as this is also a false doctrine. However, you will see that maintaining your relationship (abiding in Christ) is necessary for Christians in order to finish the race. You CAN be born again, yet end up in hell because of your apostasy. Do not be fooled nor lazy about your relationship with God. While it's not a religion, it is a relationship, albeit your most important one and it's so easy to drop the ball in this Laodecian church age we find ourselves. Renew your relationship with God every morning and read His Word everyday. I want all of us to make it and not take our relationship with Him for granted. That means NO deliberate sin, as continual deliberate sinning puts Jesus back on the cross and there is no sacrifice left for us...
Hebrews 10:26-27 says, For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
Of course we aren't perfect and the Bible tells us that if we say we don't sin, we are liars. However, there's a difference between slipping up, and repenting, and living in sin and, "Oops, Jesus forgive me, Oops, I did it again Jesus, Oops, oops, oops",all in the span of a day or a few days or weeks.
There's a difference between a Christian and a disciple and Jesus want us to be the latter. God bless brothers and sisters, finish the race and will see you in heaven soon!
The point is that those spiritually immature "babes in Christ" that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 3 are carnal and have the same kind of understanding as the natural man. They are not getting their understanding through the Holy Spirit so they are said to still be sipping spiritual milk and are not ready for solid spiritual food. They don't understand the deeper things of God that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 2 which is the same as the solid spiritual food that he talks about in 1 Corinthians 3.I don't follow you. This is how I understand the passage.
1 Corinthians 2:9–3:3 is part of Paul’s teaching to the church in Corinth about true wisdom and spiritual maturity.
Summary by sections:
2:9–16 — God's wisdom is revealed by the Spirit: Paul explains that human wisdom can't comprehend what God has prepared for those who love Him. Instead, this wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit, who knows the deep things of God. The natural (non-spiritual) person can't understand spiritual truths because they require spiritual discernment.
Key idea:
True understanding of God comes through the Spirit, not through human intellect alone.
3:1–3 — Spiritual immaturity in Corinth: Paul criticizes the Corinthian believers for still being "infants in Christ." They are not yet ready for solid spiritual food because they’re acting in jealousy and division, which shows they are still worldly.
Key idea:
The Corinthians’ behavior shows they haven’t matured spiritually—even though they have access to the Spirit, they are still living by human standards.
Overall message:
Paul contrasts spiritual wisdom (from God, through the Spirit) with worldly thinking. He encourages the church to grow up in their faith and move beyond shallow divisions and human pride.
What does that mean? The Holy Spirit helps us see the context of scripture.The Holy Spirit is the context.
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