Once saved always saved (Dangerous)?

BT · Jan 18, 2005

what about the parent that loses a child or has huge things happen in their lives and they can't cope and wonder where God was in it all and turn, their faith level wasn't high enough to sustain such a battering.

Job 1:13-22 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

BT · Jan 18, 2005

Which is still not to say that they were never saved. The only ones who know that are the person and the Lord. I leave the "yes they certainly were" and the "no they were not" up to God and rest on His Word and what it teaches.

but that's just me

Heatherondo · Jan 19, 2005

mixster said:
I have always felt that this doctrine Baptist teach could be dangerous and I will tell you why. When I was a child of 11 I went to a SB church and when the alter call was given an old fellow reached over and whispered in my ear that if I did not go foreward I could end up in hell one day. Well I went forward and joined the church and was baptized and thought I was cool and on my way to heaven. But the truth is when I was baptized I went down a sinner and came up a wet one and not until many years later did I really meet Jesus and was born again and baptized for real. Now if I had not had this opportunity I might have lived my life thinking I was cool and when I died I would have ended up right where that old guy said I would go and that was hell.
Over the years I have known many folks that professed to be good christians and even were sunday school teachers, and deacons but they were no more christian than my car. THey would go to church every week and during the week live like the devil and say the Lords name in vain every other word it seems. I knew this fellow recently that went to a Baptist church and when he came to work he bragged on how he just taught Sunday School, and then pulled a Porn magazine out of his briefcase and split the air with profanity.
Now I know no Christian is perfect and we can sin, but when we do we repent immediately and we sure dont practice it as if nothing were wrong with it.
This once saved always saved business can be dangerous because many folks are taught this in church and in reality they were not really born again. In other words we cant just get someone to say a few words and leave them hanging . We have to make absolutely sure they know what they are doing and what it all means. In other words counsul them before they join a church or be baptized.
Now I do believe once we are saved , if we are really saved and born again, we are saved forever and only one time IF we keep the faith until the end, but there are many Baptist out there that do not have a clue and this is dangerous.........

Now see, kids being pressured to "get saved" when they dont understand the commitment is something i have a real problem with. God convicts, not man. As a result of adults pressuring kids i am sure alot of people are missing eternity with the Lord because they were pressured and not convicted at that point but later when they felt God nudging, they ignored it because they were already "saved".

eldermike · Jan 19, 2005

What about the verses (some quoted above) that say you can fall away and lose your salvation, even after being made partakers of the Holy Spirit?

People need fellowship, it's designed in us. Folks love church, (the entity), they love church work, the covered dish lunches, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor. But many of them are in love with the process and not in love with Jesus. They are relegious but not submitted to Christ. They use reason, wealth, good business deals to do good work, they love the process. These people will become important in your church. The verses you are using here are about this very problem within the church. These verse are not about your salvation but instead a warning to the saved.

BT · Jan 19, 2005

eldermike said:
People need fellowship, it's designed in us. Folks love church, (the entity), they love church work, the covered dish lunches, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor. But many of them are in love with the process and not in love with Jesus. They are relegious but not submitted to Christ. They use reason, wealth, good business deals to do good work, they love the process. These people will become important in your church. The verses you are using here are about this very problem within the church. These verse are not about your salvation but instead a warning to the saved.

Potluck is the (lesser known) seventh Baptist distinctive it goes like this

B - Bible is the sole authority
A - Autonomy of the church
P - Priesthood of believers
T - Two ordinances (the Lord's Supper + Baptism)
I - Individual soul liberty
S - Separation of church and state
T - Two offices (pastor and deacon)

P - potluck
C - comb-overs

Since the last two letters don't fit so well they are considered "silent" like the "g" in gnu.

eldermike · Jan 19, 2005

C - comb-overs

Now that's funny

ZiSunka · Jan 19, 2005

What about the verses (some quoted above) that say you can fall away and lose your salvation, even after being made partakers of the Holy Spirit?

Click to expand...

they haven't lost their salvation, they threw it away. They were people who for some reason, thumbed their noses at God after they professed faith in Him.

I know just such a guy. He was raised in the church and really, really believed what he was taught about God. But when he was in college, he got involved with a sinful relationship. He knew it was wrong, but he was so in love with this other person that he didn't want to end the relationship. He consciously told God taht he wanted no part of Him anymore and that he wanted this relationship more than he wanted to be saved.

God let him go his own way and he has led a life of pain and degradation and doesn't even see how his decision to leave God had anything to do with it. In fact, he thinks that it is normal for people to degrade themselves and live in pain, he's so far from the truth now. He blasphemes God and mocks people who have faith in Him.

Did that man lose his salvation? No. He threw it away.

FreeinChrist · Jan 19, 2005

SonOfThunder said:
Thats an interesting statement.

SonOfThunder said:
I have seen personally people who love God a whole lot turn and follow the world. Were they ever believers, you bet your life! can we say that anyone who choses through warped beliefs to not follow God were saved in the first place?

But we only are able to look at the outward person, not their true heart and mind. God is able to look at their heart and mind, and know if they are truly beleivers. As it is God who does the forgiving, the cleansing and gives the Holy Spirit as His pledge of our inheritance, I have to stick with the view that once He saves us, we are always saved. We cannot truly know about other people - whether saved or not.

what about the parent that loses a child or has huge things happen in their lives and they can't cope and wonder where God was in it all and turn, their faith level wasn't high enough to sustain such a battering.

Been there. I lost a child and was angry at God, but intime He led me back. No, I never 'lost' my salvation, though my faith was shaken.

We fail, we have faith problems, does that mean no eternal life?

I sure don't know.

interesting topic isn't it?

James

The point of OSAS is that our salvation is based on Christ, and on the work of God (cleansing, adopting, forgiving, giving us the Holy Spirit as a pledge) and not based on our continuing to earn salvation. We do not come to Christ unless God draws us, grants it to us, or gives us to Christ:

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Now a person may get angry at God, and seem to turn away, but still be a beleiver. Point is, we don't know for sure.
However, just because a person says they beleive, it doesn't mean they do. I have met too many who said they were believers, then were brought to a true belief in Christ - then their life changed and they demonstrated that belief. So I still believe that a person who lives a life against God (as opposed to being angry with God) is probably not saved. I trust that God is the one who knows who is and isn't, though.

Now for those who believe salvation can be lost......don't you think God knows who truly believes or not? Doesn't He know the future? Can't He work within a person even in those times of discouragement and anger? ( I know He can!!) Exactly at what point does a person lose it?

MeekOne · Jan 19, 2005

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

mixster · Jan 19, 2005

To say we cant walk away from our faith is like saying we have no free will. Free will is a enate part of our make up that is God given and Jesus cannot interfere with that. We must endure to the end, that is keep the faith. Not be sinless but to trust and believe in Jesus atoning blood and if we deny that then we are lost forever and there is no coming back for Jesus died once and for all for us and we can not crucify him over and over again. We get one shot at salvation and we are saved forever and all we have to do is trust Jesus until we die.

eldermike · Jan 19, 2005

To say we cant walk away from our faith is like saying we have no free will. Free will is a enate part of our make up that is God given and Jesus cannot interfere with that. We must endure to the end, that is keep the faith. Not be sinless but to trust and believe in Jesus atoning blood and if we deny that then we are lost forever and there is no coming back for Jesus died once and for all for us and we can not crucify him over and over again. We get one shot at salvation and we are saved forever and all we have to do is trust Jesus until we die.

If this were so, then Jesus did not have to die at all. Dut 28 is all you need. Do thus and be blessed, do so and be cursed.

Sure you have to endure to the end. This means you may go through trials, you may even be killed in the Name above all Names. But your enduring will be in the presence of the Helper, the Holy Spirit.

FreeinChrist · Jan 19, 2005

mixster said:
To say we cant walk away from our faith is like saying we have no free will. Free will is a enate part of our make up that is God given and Jesus cannot interfere with that. We must endure to the end, that is keep the faith. Not be sinless but to trust and believe in Jesus atoning blood and if we deny that then we are lost forever and there is no coming back for Jesus died once and for all for us and we can not crucify him over and over again. We get one shot at salvation and we are saved forever and all we have to do is trust Jesus until we die.

Well, I am not a Calvinist and beleive we have free will...and I disagree with your view very much! The 'one shot' is this life we have - not 'one shot' during this life then, - too bad, no hope! That is bad theology in my book.

So tell me....if a person hears a mesage about Christ and beleives at 10 years old, then goes to college and decides he doesn't believe any more.....
was he saved, then unsaved...and if so, what is he repents and believes at 30? Is it just too bad for him? Is that REALLY what you believe?

costlygrace · Jan 19, 2005

lambslove said:
they haven't lost their salvation, they threw it away. They were people who for some reason, thumbed their noses at God after they professed faith in Him.

Definitely it is a matter of throwing it away (because we want our own way), rather than losing it. But sadly it happens a lot.

Snow Angel · Jan 19, 2005

Once saved always saved. I believe that.I was baptized, when I was Twelve,
and have loved the lord ever since.glory to God.

Snow Angel · Jan 19, 2005

If you Truly except God as your saver at Ten,I think you are always saved,
if a person at 15 turns away from God ,God stills loves you He does not turn away
from you,But you do have to turn back to God and ask forgivness It's Like when you
Mom or Dad Gets Mad at you,you can do just about anything,But They will still love
you till they die.

mixster · Jan 20, 2005

Freeinchrist: If that 10 year old knew what he was doing and was born again then he is saved forever. I do not care how old a person is when they get saved, they have to be born again and unfortunately in the Baptist churches many are not really born again when they go forward and join the church and get baptized. That was my case but when I got older and had the chance to hear the Word and realize what I had to do to get saved I was born again and baptized again for the first time was not
for real. Sure someone can get saved at any age if they realize they were not really saved when a child, and to me this is the dangerous part of once saved always saved taught by the Baptist. When I say it is a one shot deal I mean when we get saved and are truely born again then we are saved once and forever but we must endure to the end of our life and not give up the faith.

FreeinChrist · Jan 20, 2005

mixster said:
Freeinchrist: If that 10 year old knew what he was doing and was born again then he is saved forever. I do not care how old a person is when they get saved, they have to be born again and unfortunately in the Baptist churches many are not really born again when they go forward and join the church and get baptized. That was my case but when I got older and had the chance to hear the Word and realize what I had to do to get saved I was born again and baptized again for the first time was not
for real. Sure someone can get saved at any age if they realize they were not really saved when a child, and to me this is the dangerous part of once saved always saved taught by the Baptist. When I say it is a one shot deal I mean when we get saved and are truely born again then we are saved once and forever but we must endure to the end of our life and not give up the faith.

That is a a bit clearer. It seemed you believed one could lose their salvation and then not have the opportunity to be saved in this lifetime.

I attended Baptist churches for several decades and never heard a Baptist preacher teach that one can just say the prayer and be saved, regardless of the true intent of their heart. All talked about a true belief in Christ, in taking up the cross and following Him, on growing in Christ. And that we cannot know the true intent of another's heart. This is why they offered an alter call even if only members were in attendence.

Now what the guy did in the OP was wrong, IMHO, though his intent may have been to encourage a child to come to Christ. But I don't let those types of actions by humans change the theology of God as I understand it from scripture. It appears that you do, in fact, believe in OSAS and are maybe assuming that the behavior of some changes the doctrine. I have always known Baptist ministers who recognized that not all were saved who claimed they were, and so they never quit offerring that gospel message to all - members who claimied to be saved or not.

mixster · Jan 21, 2005

I believe in every denomination and church many are sitting right there singing, praying , being deacons, choir members, going to every church function, and everytime the church doors are open they are there but they are as lost as a rock and on a beeline to hell because they received wrong teaching and live like hell all week but Sunday and were not truly born again but used church as a social gathering place. I would hazard to say that in every church there are probably only about 20-30 percent that are hundred percenters that have a place at the Lords banquet table.

MeekOne · Jan 21, 2005

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

FreeinChrist · Jan 21, 2005

mixster said:
I believe in every denomination and church many are sitting right there singing, praying , being deacons, choir members, going to every church function, and everytime the church doors are open they are there but they are as lost as a rock and on a beeline to hell because they received wrong teaching and live like hell all week but Sunday and were not truly born again but used church as a social gathering place. I would hazard to say that in every church there are probably only about 20-30 percent that are hundred percenters that have a place at the Lords banquet table.

I agree. Though I strongly suspect they received the right teaching but heard what they wanted to hear. I've never heard a Baptist minister say it is okay to 'live like hell'. But I have also seen a variety of interpretations about what is 'living like hell'. I have an uncle who would see having wine at dinner as 'living like hell'. Dancing? wow- taking a shortcut to hell with that! So I always have to qualify 'live like hell'.

But I get what you are saying.

It goes back to the fact that noone comes to Christ unless God draws them, grants it to them, and gives them to Christ. Those that don't truly believe...and God knows who they are....will be doomed. All we can do is to keep preachng the gospel, showing Christ's love to them, and pray that they will receive the truth. But in regards to the doctrine of once you are saved by God, you are always saved...I have to stick with that on the basis that my salvation is not based on me but on the blood of Christ and the salvation work of God (cleansing, adopting, forgiving, making new, giving the Spirit as a pledge of our inheritance).

Once saved always saved (Dangerous)?

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