Once Saved, Always Saved - Contradictory Verses

[Ave Maria]

How do you explain the following verses?

[BIBLE]2 Peter 2:20[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Hebrews 6:4-6[/BIBLE]

 

[Terri]

I think the following verse answers what happens to those people mentioned in your verses:

1CO 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

They are handed over to satan so their "latter end is worse with them than the beginning." I believe that God will do whatever is necessary to save the spirit of someone that belongs to him--they are judged in the body so that their spirit may be saved. It says that even the dead will be "judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." (see 1PE 4:5 listed below)

1PE 4:5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

How do you explain the following verses?

2 Peter 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Actually those aren't contradictory verses . Hebrews 6:4-6 are actually some of the strongest verses in support of OSAS. There are two key words in those verses. Impossible in verse 4 and If in verse 6. If one should fall away then it is impossible to be enlightenened once again, because Jesus would have to come die again and again. The Blood is powerful enough to save us for eternity through one application, not a continuous measure of pouring on the Blood. Once was enough.

 

[constance]

Hi Holly,

I don't have the head-power to do Bible study right now (I have a migraine) but one thing I want to point out is that when I find an apparent contradiction between two verses....if I read them in context (ie the whole chapter each is in) I tend to understand them in a different light.

I'll respond to this later (hopefully) - I have to sing at a wedding today & maybe I will feel better afterwards.

Sigh. Nothing like singing in public in pain and stoned.

Constance

 

[Ave Maria]

Actually those aren't contradictory verses . Hebrews 6:4-6 are actually some of the strongest verses in support of OSAS. There are two key words in those verses. Impossible in verse 4 and If in verse 6. If one should fall away then it is impossible to be enlightenened once again, because Jesus would have to come die again and again. The Blood is powerful enough to save us for eternity through one application, not a continuous measure of pouring on the Blood. Once was enough.

I guess I still don't quite understand that verse. Could you explain further?

 

[DawnTillery]

I will not do as good of a job as others might in explaining but I will try.
6:4-6 DOES NOT teach that one can lose his salavation.
The verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what could happen to a saved person IF he could fall away.
(YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, there is an IF) not will or can, but IF
The Author does not believe one can lose his salvation or that the reader had (VS9)
I think that it actually supports eternal salvation and the above post someone said Jesus would have to come and die again, I agree with that, because.. Jesus paid for our sins ONCE, He doesn't have to come back and do it again. Think about it.

 

[Marissa]

Why talk about something that is impossible?

It seems to me that claiming that if and then the impossible mean that it's not possible to lose ones salvation is a stretch. It says x, yet it's been twisted to say y.

Every sin can forgiven, bar blasphemy of the holy spirit. That includes walking away from the Lord. Christ wouldn't have to die again. You would simply have to repent. Either it's not possible to walk away from the Lord, or you lose the ability to come back if you do.

I believe the latter. It's not because Christs blood can't cover that sin, but because it won't. Given all who repent will be forgiven, I believe in this situation a person loses the ability to repent of this sin. Without that repentance, we aren't covered by Christ.

All that said, I have to admit I have major problems with OSAS so I'm probably going into this with blinkers on as much as anyone.

 

[ZiSunka]

Why talk about something that is impossible?

It seems to me that claiming that if and then the impossible mean that it's not possible to lose ones salvation is a stretch. It says x, yet it's been twisted to say y.

Every sin can forgiven, bar blasphemy of the holy spirit. That includes walking away from the Lord. Christ wouldn't have to die again. You would simply have to repent. Either it's not possible to walk away from the Lord, or you lose the ability to come back if you do.

I believe the latter. It's not because Christs blood can't cover that sin, but because it won't. Given all who repent will be forgiven, I believe in this situation a person loses the ability to repent of this sin. Without that repentance, we aren't covered by Christ.

He's not talking about people who wander away from Christ for a while, he is talking about people who ONCE tasted the joys of the Lord, then discarded all that and put Christ to shame, meaning they mocked him and denegrated him. He's saying that it is impossible for them to return because the shame they brought on Christ and his crucifixtion would keep them from returning. They wouldn't come back because they believe the trash they talked about Christ. They tried Christ ONCE and found him not to their liking, even though they received a full measure of blessing from him. If you read Romans, you will see that people who do that, God allows their minds to go dark and their hearts to grow cold and he allows them to be caught up in every sin that comes their way.

I know several people who would fall into this catagory. One is a man who had great faith in Christ initially, but when he was in college, he didn't just stray from Christ, he told Christ where he could put his salvation. He made it clear that he wanted Christ out of his life. He didn't lose his salvation, he shoved it up God's nose! He had tasted the good things of God, but decided they weren't to his liking and put God out of his life to go pursue satan. It was a diliberate choice on his part at a specific and definite moment in his life. God will not force eternal life in heaven on anyone, and when a person who knows Him decides they want nothing more to do with Him, He honors that. It is a freewill choice, not a judgment or punishment from God. Thirty years later, that man is so bitter against God that he would never consider returning to the faith he once had. He doesn't even bother cursing God, he refuses to even admit there IS a God! It is impossible for him to have faith now.

Another example is a woman I know that was disappointed that her Christian husband didn't become famous in Christian music. She pushed him and pushed him until he broke down. He couldn't do what she wanted, mostly I think because that wasn't God's plan for the man's life. She turned against her husband and God. She didn't just walk away, she went out and committed every form of defilement, hurting her husband, their six kids, her friends and family, everyone she could think of. When her friends talked to her to try to get her back on the right path, she told them where to go, then through her husband out of the house, started living with a married man (husband of her best friend), neglected the kids, had two more children by different men (both married) and when her eighth child was born disabled, she cursed God and told him she wanted nothing more to do with him, that she was sick of him. Even then, she could have come back to Christ at any point. But then she started having an affair with a pastor, ruined him, ruined his church, and went around telling people that God approved of their union because he wants people to be happy and whatever feels good is God's will. She started teaching a wrong message, a message that leads to death, not eternal life. She earnestly believes that God is evil and evil is good. She chose to end her relationship with God, to defile it, and now she can't even remember what the true gospel is, and she won't listen to anyone that tries to tell her. It is impossible for her to come to repentence or renew her relationship with God because she thinks she already has, even though she continues in her ways of death and destruction.

That's what this passage means. God is not judging those who walk away and want to come back, cursing them with eternal separation from himself, he is honoring the choice of those who once knew him, that once loved him, that once tasted the joys of faith in him. He would love to have them back, but because of their choices, they will not come back.

 

[Stinker]

2 Peter 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.




The word escaped in the Koine Greek is apopheugo (ap-of-yoo'-go) and is only used in (2Pet.1:4) and (2Pet.2:18,20).

It is word #668 in Strong's Exaustive Concordance of the Bible which is keyed to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

What is extremely interesting about this word is that it does not mean 'to escape to safety' as the Koine Greek word does in such passages as Jn.10:39 where Jesus escaped out of the Jews hands because they sought to apprehend Him for blasphemy, and He went beyond the Jordan (Jn.10:40).

All this word means is 'to flee from, escape' Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T.

So when Peter uses this word in his 2nd letter it is to be understood that he is referring to people who do not want the saftey that Christ has provided for us to flee to. So they continue to flee until sin finally catches up to them and consumes them.

 

[Marissa]

He's not talking about people who wander away from Christ for a while, he is talking about people who ONCE tasted the joys of the Lord, then discarded all that and put Christ to shame, meaning they mocked him and denegrated him. He's saying that it is impossible for them to return because the shame they brought on Christ and his crucifixtion would keep them from returning. They wouldn't come back because they believe the trash they talked about Christ. They tried Christ ONCE and found him not to their liking, even though they received a full measure of blessing from him. If you read Romans, you will see that people who do that, God allows their minds to go dark and their hearts to grow cold and he allows them to be caught up in every sin that comes their way.

I clearly simplified my post too much. I did try to write what you wrote, but it just wouldn't flow right. Nicely done.

I get the feeling you feel my post was wrong, even though I agree completely with what you've posted. Yet, I'm not sure what the problem is.

People can walk away from Christ. They lose the ability to repent. If you lose your ability to repent, you can not come back into the fold. Simplified, but not inaccurate.

 

[DawnTillery]

Why talk about something that is impossible?

It seems to me that claiming that if and then the impossible mean that it's not possible to lose ones salvation is a stretch. It says x, yet it's been twisted to say y.

Every sin can forgiven, bar blasphemy of the holy spirit. That includes walking away from the Lord. Christ wouldn't have to die again. You would simply have to repent. Either it's not possible to walk away from the Lord, or you lose the ability to come back if you do.

I believe the latter. It's not because Christs blood can't cover that sin, but because it won't. Given all who repent will be forgiven, I believe in this situation a person loses the ability to repent of this sin. Without that repentance, we aren't covered by Christ.

All that said, I have to admit I have major problems with OSAS so I'm probably going into this with blinkers on as much as anyone.

Am I reading this correct? That we lose our ability to repent of sins?
Could I have the scripture of that please?

 

[ZiSunka]

Ephesians 4:18 Their closed minds are full of darkness; they are far away from the life of God because they have shut their minds and hardened their hearts against him. 19 They don't care anymore about right and wrong, and they have given themselves over to immoral ways. Their lives are filled with all kinds of impurity and greed. 20 But that isn't what you were taught when you learned about Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. 13 You must warn each other every day, as long as it is called "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. 14 For if we are faithful to the end,clinging to God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

These are both talking about believers who harden their hearts against God.

 

[hindsey]

Ephesians 4:18 Their closed minds are full of darkness; they are far away from the life of God because they have shut their minds and hardened their hearts against him. 19 They don't care anymore about right and wrong, and they have given themselves over to immoral ways. Their lives are filled with all kinds of impurity and greed. 20 But that isn't what you were taught when you learned about Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. 13 You must warn each other every day, as long as it is called "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. 14 For if we are faithful to the end,clinging to God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

These are both talking about believers who harden their hearts against God.

Ephesians 4:18 is not talking about believers - look at verse 17. I am going to address the Hebrews in a different post.

Eph 4:17

17: This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

 

[hindsey]

How do you explain the following verses?

2 Peter 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

One thing about the book of Hebrews to remember is that it was a book written with a specific purpose. And that purpose was to show that Jesus Christ, God the Son, and the new covenant that was made, was so much better than the old covenant that God had made with the children of Israel, or the Hebrews. The book of Hebrews was written to Jews. Jews who had a religion with God the Father. The author of Hebrews is trying to get these believers (believers in God - under the old covenant) to recognize Jesus as their Messiah. So, to say that they were once enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted of the good word of God and powers of the world to come... All of those things were possible without having accepted Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, and His death as the ultimate passover.

 

[Cristiano]

First, the verse from 2 Peter is talking about false teachers and their destruction. Read the description of them. It even says that they "blaspheme in matters they do not understand (v12)." So the original verse was very out of context and did not have appropriate background provided.

THE MAJOR POINT EVERYONE IS MISSING IS THIS:

After giving all the description of their wrongdoings, Paul says that "IF they have escaped the corruption of the the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome [by it], then they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning." You see, Paul is saying that they HAVE NOT escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because, going back to the other verse from Hebrews, it is impossible to truly experience Christ and walk away from it forever. He is saying, look at their behavior and tell me if they have a saving faith, because I don't see anything that tells me they do.

It is so impossible to taste the goodness of the Lord and turn your back that he is emphasizing that they would be even "worse" sinners (which isn't possible) if they turned toward Christ for forgiveness, knew him and communed with him, and then turned their backs on him to live a life of sin and deny his existence, and then want foregiveness later.

In all the discussion I didn't see, or maybe I missed, one key element. I think the passages that we are referring to have to do with being saved or not being saved at the beginning. I believe that, if you TRULY have asked Christ in your life and you have a deep down desire to do his will and to bring him glory (although you know that you will fail from time to time and you may stray from time to time), you are always saved.

I think the problem is that in the world many people think they know God or think they know who Jesus is, but they have never denied themselves and repented that first time saying I can't do anything without you Lord, I need you as Lord of my life and my savior, come into my life and take away my sins by your blood. The Bible talks about the fact that, at judgment day, many will come before the Lord and say, "Lord, we cast out demons in your name. Lord we did this in your name." Then the Lord will say, leave my presence, I never knew you.

I believe those verses apply very well to this situation. There are people in this world that have a works-based "religion" and not a saving faith. People think that if they go to church or do good things and serve others, that they will get to heaven. It's not true. A saving faith produces those good works in our lives, that were already planned for us to do in Eph. 2.

So Paul states that it is impossible for someone to taste the goodness of Christ and walk away. It is called irresistable grace. If we have the Lord in our hearts, we cannot be lost forever, we will eventually be reconciled to God again, but the point is that nothing can separate us from the love of Jesus, saving love.

 

[Tenorvoice]

Cristiano, you beat me to it. I was waiting for someone to point that out as I read through this.

Anytime that you read through Scripture you CAN NOT just pick out one verse and try and compare it to another.

You have to read the ENTIRE section of scripture and see how it applies in a whole.

God Bless

 

[Cristiano]

Cristiano, you beat me to it. I was waiting for someone to point that out as I read through this.

Anytime that you read through Scripture you CAN NOT just pick out one verse and try and compare it to another.

You have to read the ENTIRE section of scripture and see how it applies in a whole.

God Bless

Thanks bro!

 

[Happy to be His]

Good morning Holly:

I was reading my footnote for 2 Peter 2:20 here it is:

if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world. A reference to false teachers who had once apparently been believers in Christ. Their professed knowledge of Christ had at least produced a changed in life-style.

again entangled in them and are overcome. A complete return to the old sinful patteren of life

I am still reading Hebrews 6: 4-6 I have other referes I will send them to you.....I want to make sure I understand before I answer....make sense.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

How do you explain the following verses?

2 Peter 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 peter 2:20.....

lets look at they have escaped who have they escaped is the question..

it the OSN...believers cannot do this ...verses for more depth eph 5:8, james 1:8, Gal 5:25

How did they escaped afterv belief... through the real experiencial knowledge..... not only did they have knowledge from scripture but they have also had victory over it by using the proper defense againt this enemy.

vs 21 better for them not to have known the way of righteousness
is God says that a man that believes should not ...no

[how to live ] righteousness ....how does one know how? Ro. 4:5 this ungodly person does not know how but since he believe God counts him righteous now he need to learn how to walk what he is ..by learning God's word.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

phil 1:6..promise to all believers