On submission in the bible

Cearbhall · Sep 19, 2015

Rhamiel said:
it is an exaggeration, but it is the same basic principle

Not really. You're comparing apples and bison.

SnowyMacie · Sep 19, 2015

Jennae said:
My idea of helpmeet isn't someone who just submits to her husbands headship and has no backbone or say in the marriage. I don't see it that way at all. Submission, headship and helpmeet have become like horrible bad words and it's such a shame.

Below is more my idea of what a helpmeet is...
http://teachingwhatisgood.com/question-what-does-it-really-mean-to-be-a-helpmate/
(I did not read the whole blog or everything in her post...I just liked her description that I've attached.)

I am not a doormat…I do not lie down so my husband can trod on me; I am valuable in the eyes of the Lord in my own right and my ministry is vital to the maturation of my husband (just as his is to me) and to the church

I am a vital vibrant child of God and have value in who I am before the Lord for all eternity

I willingly lay down my own wants and desires for the sake of the Lord and to help meet the needs of my husband

I am my husband’s greatest counsel; God gives insight and wisdom and concerns to me that my husband may not see without me… part of my job is to lovingly share these thoughts with him so that, together (whenever possible) we can make the wisest and best choices for our family

I am not my husband’s slave although I am called to serve him (God has given him very definite responsibilities in how he is to treat, honor, protect and nurture me), but like Jesus’ service to the church, it is not out of obligation but love

I am not allowed to take all of my husband’s responsibilities on my shoulders to relieve him of pressure and stress (either out of frustration that he is not doing a good job or out of a desire to help him in times of stress); God has given my husband his own responsibilities and I cannot take over God’s job in my husband’s life

I need to figure out what my husband’s priorities are for our family and home and work to line my priorities up with his, with his help and guidance if necessary

I am intelligent in my own right, I do not need my husband because I am stupid or cannot understand scripture for myself, but in my marriage I am not complete without him – God no longer provides the grace for me to live apart from the gifts and talents of my husband (while we are married)

God gives the responsibility for the direction for our family to my husband, along with input and insight from me, and it is my job to help the children see and follow that direction (as long as it is within the bounds of scripture)

These are the things that I don't see as good things is a marriage.

1) My wife can go be and do whatever she desires, regardless of what want I want or need. Obviously, there's a line where it's going to cause conflict, but that's worked through and it could be that I was the one in the wrong.
2) I've never understood what women need protection from they they can't protect themselves from.
3) I think our priorities should line up together, not my only my wife lining up her with mine.
4) Women simply make better guides of children and home life. Also, different people have different strengths and weakness, and the responsibilities of parents and family leading should depend on the individual strengths and weaknesses. The example I always use is finances, if I marry a finance person, she's simply better equipped and suited to be in charge of our family's finances. Obviously, that can be taken as my decision to let my wife do that because she'd better at therefore, that's getting insight and input from her, but I don't necessarily.

Saricharity · Sep 19, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Not really. You're comparing apples and bison.

Not at all.

Willingly making the choice is what makes it such a beautiful gift.

Saricharity · Sep 19, 2015

TX_Matt said:
These are the things that I don't see as good things is a marriage.

1) My wife can go be and do whatever she desires, regardless of what want I want or need. Obviously, there's a line where it's going to cause conflict, but that's worked through and it could be that I was the one in the wrong.
I'm not disagreeing. Your wife should be able to do what she desires in accordance with Gods will. If she is looking out for your needs, then you will be looking out for hers.

2) I've never understood what women need protection from they they can't protect themselves from.

I feel safe and loved when I am with my fiancé. I know he will speak up when I can't. I know he will be my strength when I'm weak. He has shown me this on more occasions than I can count. He even protects me from myself. He can speak into my life with a special kind of love NO ONE else can.

3) I think our priorities should line up together, not my only my wife lining up her with mine.

I agree. I will support my husbands priorities for our family because his priorities will be synonymous with mine. We will make goals together and work towards them as a team.

4) Women simply make better guides of children and home life. Also, different people have different strengths and weakness, and the responsibilities of parents and family leading should depend on the individual strengths and weaknesses. The example I always use is finances, if I marry a finance person, she's simply better equipped and suited to be in charge of our family's finances. Obviously, that can be taken as my decision to let my wife do that because she'd better at therefore, that's getting insight and input from her, but I don't necessarily.

Again, I agree. We all have strengths and weaknesses. If I'm better at finances, it's only wise that I take on that role. Hopefully premarital counselling and honest soul searching will allow couples to humbly admit weaknesses and acknowledge strengths. I know couples that are not very traditional. One man does all the shopping and cooking because his wife hates cooking and shopping and he is a fabulous cook. It works for them. I know a family where the woman has a full time career and the husband stays home and homeschools because it works for them. Both couples are great.

Cearbhall · Sep 19, 2015

Jennae said:
Not at all.

Willingly making the choice is what makes it such a beautiful gift.

Exactly. I've said time and time again that I have no problem with people freely choosing it. However, making it into a matter of morality is problematic.

Rhamiel · Sep 19, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Exactly. I've said time and time again that I have no problem with people freely choosing it. However, making it into a matter of morality is problematic.

well.... how we interact with people often has a moral element to it

Blue Wren · Sep 20, 2015

Stanfordella said:
Whoa, you brought on a rush of deja vu. I remember the conversation between you and a teacher about this a couple of years ago...... She provided some fantastic scriptural insight and perspective in response to challenge you in a loving way. You know how freaky my memory is, so text me if you want me to recite what she said.

Edit to add -
I read that entire blog post to put her bullet points about being a help meet into context. I vehemently disagree with her views. I do struggle with the term "help meet," for several reasons. I read part of Debi Pearl's Created to be a Help Meet out of curiosity after you introduced me to the term "help meet" when we were fifteen. I later found this post from a Baptist woman who reviewed the book and put many of my own thoughts about it into words:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/226607-Preparing-to-be-a-Helpmeet?p=2679980#post2679980

All that being said, whether or not it's beneficial for a women to be a "help meet" to her husband depends on whether she's gladly, knowledgeably, and without coercion chosen that role for herself, and on the dynamics of the couple. I do not think young girls should be raised with the notion that they were created by God to become help meets for their husbands, and that it's the only honorable role they can chose for themselves. It saddens me when I learn about bright teenage girls who lack ambition and are not developing plans for their future because they aspire to marry right out of high school and become a help meet to their husbands, and let his life be what determines theirs. They do not let their own potential and dreams flourish. It's different if a mature, educated woman makes the informed decision to be a help meet, and if the husband behaves in such a way that it is mutually empowering.

And to paraphrase what another friend here wrote, submissiveness shouldn't be permanent, and should be contingent upon the husband being in submission to both the laws of authority where he lives and to Jesus. There have been horrific abuses throughout history due to misguided beliefs about women and submission.

That post you linked, it gave good points, on the dangers, of being a help meet. That Help Meet book, she wrote about, by the Dobson lady, that made my stomach turn. It's horrifying, that people, they trust the advice, from this book, and the other ones the Dobsons wrote. Even though following the advice, leady to women being abused, and even children dying. The post, below the one you linked, that was very useful, also. I had talked with my pastor, back in December, when I first learnt the term, from here. I knew there was controversy about it, that many Christians, they do not believe it is Biblical. That lady, she did a nice job, explaining how it's nowhere to be found, in the Bible. I think, it's a cultural tradition, more than a Christian one. If that's what a woman, and her husband, want for themselves, that is their choice, yes. I agree, that girls should not be taught, that it is their purpose in life.

I made an error. That book, talked about in the post before me, it was not by a Dobson lady. It was by Debi Pearl. I was reading about that book, and one by the Dobsons, at the same time.

Blue Wren · Sep 20, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Exactly. I've said time and time again that I have no problem with people freely choosing it. However, making it into a matter of morality is problematic.

I agree, with free choice, yes. I wonder how freely it is chosen, especially, if the help meet was still a kid, when she got engaged, and agreed to it.

Rhamiel · Sep 20, 2015

you say you are ok with it if it is "freely chosen"
but then you throw suspicion on anyone who chooses it freely....

are there cases where this is abused?
yes, of course
there are cases of abuse in more modern and egalitarian marriages too
there are cases of malpractice by Doctors and corruption among police and scandals in churches
we are human, just about anything that CAN get messed up WILL get messed up

High Fidelity · Sep 20, 2015

There will always be a choice. You can choose to submit or not. As with most choices, one is right, one is wrong and Scripture is the final authority on it.

redblue22 · Sep 20, 2015

One time I was at the lunch table for theol grad students. I jokingly said I was all about my wife being the helpmate or whatever. Some guys accused me of wanting a woman who is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. So I said, "I'm so not like that. I would buy my wife shoes."

The problem is that when the women came in the middle of my joking they were actually more interested in me! I got rid of that quick by saying I was only kidding around. But I think there are a lot of people really into the idea.

All of which reminds me of another girl. I asked her out for dinner, and I asked what she liked. Easy question. She was all about dinner, but refused to tell me what she liked. So I told her that I was going to some place she definitely would not like. Suddenly she was wide open to telling me her favorite foods. I felt so controlling--yet against my will.

Goodbook · Sep 20, 2015

I think the debi pearl book is dangerous and taking the idea out of context. I dont know about the abuse cases but i would say in when people go back to old testamant its a bit dangerous. Yes eve was created to be helper for adam. But this does not mean adam did not have a responsibility for eve and that he could treat her as he did the animals. Which is where, people get the idea of dominion or domination from.

We are in nt times and we are new creations in christ. The holy spirit is the helper. A guy without the holy spirit in him, may need a helper in the old way, but the NT norm is that we all have helpers within us with the spirit. Not to say, dont get married....but there isnt the need like in the OT to go forth and multiply and be fruitful...Jesus of course, did not marry and did not need a helper like a wife and he actually was ultimately submitting everything to his Father. Otherwise he would be advising all men to get married and that women were all literally the holy spirit and everyone had to marry.

But Paul clearly says different, he gives advise to married couples, but he also gives advise to singles. For married couples the advise is to submit and love, and that went for both husband and wife, but he placed different emohasis on the wife and husband because women do not readily submit, as per .eve. And men do not readily love and cherish, as per adam.

Blue Wren · Sep 20, 2015

Rhamiel said:
you say you are ok with it if it is "freely chosen"
but then you throw suspicion on anyone who chooses it freely....

are there cases where this is abused?
yes, of course
there are cases of abuse in more modern and egalitarian marriages too
there are cases of malpractice by Doctors and corruption among police and scandals in churches
we are human, just about anything that CAN get messed up WILL get messed up

Where did I throw suspicion around, on anyone, who chooses it freely? I did not. You are misrepresenting, very badly. What I wrote, was that I worry, about very young girls who get engaged, commit to being help meets, after being indoctrinated with the belief, their whole lives, that that is what they were created for. I worry, about young women, who get married, at 17, who gain no education, no employment skills. There have been many cases, of such women. If their husband, becomes abusive, neglectful, unlawful, etc, it is not as possible, for such a woman, to stand on her own, as she lacks the ability to gain a proper job to support herself, and her children. I wrote about a very specific, subset, of women, that I worry for. Not just "anyone."

In all other marriages, there's a potential, for abuse, yes. There's specific patterns, that tend to lead more, to abuse, mistreatment, in a marriage.

Editing, as a favour, to a friend, as her other friend, is highly sensitive, on this topic.

Goodbook · Sep 20, 2015

Its a two way thing marriage. You cannot submit to someone who is not loving. Women who think they can are deluded and in a dangerous position.

Cearbhall · Sep 20, 2015

Blue Wren said:
The person, who first told me this term, help meet, she wrote about how she got engaged, as a child. How her dream, was to be a help meet. She wrote, that women were made with leaks in them, could not hold real jobs, outside of the home.

Oy vey. That's some creative imagery. Was she raised in a certain fringe sect of Christianity?

Saricharity · Sep 20, 2015

Blue Wren said:
Where did I throw suspicion around, on anyone, who chooses it freely? I did not. You are misrepresenting, very badly. What I wrote, was that I worry, about very young girls who get engaged, commit to being help meets, after being indoctrinated with the belief, their whole lives, that that is what they were created for. I worry, about young women, who get married, at 17, who gain no education, no employment skills. There have been many cases, of such women. If their husband, becomes abusive, neglectful, unlawful, etc, it is not as possible, for such a woman, to stand on her own, as she lacks the ability to gain a proper job to support herself, and her children. I wrote about a very specific, subset, of women, that I worry for. Not anyone.

The person, who first told me this term, help meet, she wrote about how she got engaged, as a child. How her dream, was to be a help meet. She wrote, that women were made with leaks in them, could not hold real jobs, outside of the home. That mums, who work, have terribly stressful lives, neglect their kids, by making them "kraft dinners." That the greatest honour, for a woman, is it be a homemaker, help meet. This was what was taught to her, clearly. She described her mum, being savagely beaten, for a small offence, by her grandfather, when she was 18, and already engaged. Her mum, she's a help meet. Her father, he violates the laws, in how he treats his children. She described, a cycle of mistreatment. I don't know, how old this person is, as she lies about her age, but she is young. She wants to insist, that being a submissive help meet, it is nothing but rosey. I think, yes, there must be positives to this lifestyle. I think, it's not responsible, to not recognise, that there are problems with it, also.

In all other marriages, there's a potential, for abuse, yes. There's specific patterns, that tend to lead more, to abuse, mistreatment, in a marriage.

Misunderstand, misinterpret and speculate much?
Ugh!!!!

Saricharity · Sep 20, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Oy vey. That's some creative imagery. Was she raised in a certain fringe sect of Christianity?

Yes isn't it considering it was based on something written in a book and was meant as imagery to describe emotions. *eyes rolling*

Cearbhall · Sep 20, 2015

Jennae said:
Yes isn't it considering it was based on something written in a book and was meant as imagery to describe emotions. *eyes rolling*

Sorry? Do you know the acquaintance in question? I was wondering if she was raised in a particular fringe religious sect. I wouldn't expect any mainstream Christian group in a first world country to go around talking about women having leaks and not being able to perform jobs outside the home.

I'm not actually sure to what passage you're referring, regardless.

Blue Wren · Sep 20, 2015

Jennae said:
Misunderstand, misinterpret and speculate much?
Ugh!!!!

Not at all, no. What I wrote, is exactly what had been told to me. Your strop about it, doesn't change anything.

miss-a · Sep 20, 2015

What it all boils down to: BE NICE! Period and Amen.

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