On not belonging

[hopeinGod]

I've been a Spirit filled Christian (male) since 1972 and have seen brothers and sisters in the Lord, including myself, make all sorts of changes to their spiritual lives. Extremism, disillusionment, etc. decreased interest in large scale anything for many of us. I've slowed, nearly to a halt, in my association with organized groups.

Numerous friends have turned away entirely, due to various influences. A few have set aside their faith altogether. The need is no longer there. Others, like me, maintain a safe distance, study at home and pray as we feel the need. Organizations have left such a lasting scar on so many members of the body.

A couple of my friends are now proclaimed atheists, while others went on to build their own several hundred member ministries, mostly nondenominational. A few took posts in evangelical churches after having their fill of newer, more improved, movements.

Today, there exists a large variety of perspective among my old Spirit filled Christian friends, and yet most would still say they would love to be in the presence of God.

I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong?

 

[New_Wineskin]

I've been a Spirit filled Christian (male) since 1972 and have seen brothers and sisters in the Lord, including myself, make all sorts of changes to their spiritual lives. Extremism, disillusionment, etc. decreased interest in large scale anything for many of us. I've slowed, nearly to a halt, in my association with organized groups.

Numerous friends have turned away entirely, due to various influences. A few have set aside their faith altogether. The need is no longer there. Others, like me, maintain a safe distance, study at home and pray as we feel the need. Organizations have left such a lasting scar on so many members of the body.

A couple of my friends are now proclaimed atheists, while others went on to build their own several hundred member ministries, mostly nondenominational. A few took posts in evangelical churches after having their fill of newer, more improved, movements.

Today, there exists a large variety in perspective among my old Spirit filled Christian friends, and yet most would still say they would love to be in the presence of God.

I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong?

Lack of involvement is not wrong . The Lord is the first and last place to go . Until that is a part of a believer , involvement is a hindrance .

 

[Bjornke]

I agree with New_Wineskin. I actually felt guilty talking much about God when I was just learning because I knew so little, so I didn't go to events that required us to know a lot. Instead I went to my Bible and I went to organizations that are purposed for new believers.

Second, I know of a great friend who has become more delusional lately. he used to be a very strong and extraordinary believer, but as of recently he has fallen into all sorts of conspiracy theories that make zero sense what so ever. He now babbles about how keyboards are created by monopolistic Banks and even your water is being farmed by some banker named the Rothschild. I agree that big business and banks may be too big, but I doubt seriously just ONE bank named Rothschild controls everything. Come on man....

 

[jsimms615]

I've been a Spirit filled Christian (male) since 1972 and have seen brothers and sisters in the Lord, including myself, make all sorts of changes to their spiritual lives. Extremism, disillusionment, etc. decreased interest in large scale anything for many of us. I've slowed, nearly to a halt, in my association with organized groups.

Numerous friends have turned away entirely, due to various influences. A few have set aside their faith altogether. The need is no longer there. Others, like me, maintain a safe distance, study at home and pray as we feel the need. Organizations have left such a lasting scar on so many members of the body.

A couple of my friends are now proclaimed atheists, while others went on to build their own several hundred member ministries, mostly nondenominational. A few took posts in evangelical churches after having their fill of newer, more improved, movements.

Today, there exists a large variety in perspective among my old Spirit filled Christian friends, and yet most would still say they would love to be in the presence of God.

I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong?

I would say that lack of involvement and giving up or disillusionment are completely different things. i fall into the disillusionment category, at least in terms of the organized church. In some ways, I think it is a good thing that people are looking for more than pat answers and are seeking the true presence of God versus membership in a church.

 

[Johnnz]

You are not alone. There are large numbers of people who have gone from involvement to detachment in church life. The reasons are many and there are no simplistic answers. We are not meant to be isolated followers of Jesus, but for many there just does not seem to be anything nearby that 'fits'.

John
NZ

 

[1watchman]

All these thoughts here seem to be the voices of those who want to be free from the denominated sects everywhere, but usually think the only remedy is to stay home and read the Bible. Well, while that solution is still better than the sectarian spirit, there is a testimony today that has held to the Scriptural path for over 180 years for the collective fellowship. I am glad to have found it after wandering in the sectarian world for a long time.

As I often say, God wants us to get back to the Word of God as shown in Acts 2:41-42 and the Epistles; and I find the best counsel toward God's revealed pathway for His Church is such as the site at www.biblecounsel.homestead.com and through Bible Truth Publishers, Addison, IL. One can ask questions there about Redemption Way, Church Truth, and Spiritual Life. I find it showing what God gave us in the beginning for His testimony.

 

[dayhiker]

I've been getting outside the 4 walls of the church the last 18 mo. not because I'm mad at the church, but I wanted to learn some things from experience, first hand see for myself. I've talked with a whole lot of people. I've shared my story of loving Jesus with more than I did while in church. I've found a lot of people that when I say I'm a Christian they want to talk about God. Some felt the had to leave church because they weren't getting what they needed. Some have been so hurt that they will never be part of a church again. Some are so mentally messed up from the guilt trip that they would never consider going to church to get an answer for their life.

But in general they still have a special place for Jesus. Many still love Jesus.
I can't say I have found any answers, but I see Jesus is in contact with so many more people that come thru the doors of church buildings. I've had people call me a healer as I have come with love and not legalism. I've had people give me compliments of the kind I very seldom get at church. I've felt more loved that I have in most of my life.

So while I get to church every Sunday I can, I find I can love more just being a friend to those I meet day in and day out. Jesus said if I've done it unto the least I've done it unto Him. So I just seek to be a friend to people I meet and find I've been a friend with God.

 

[Living in the Light]

I really like your endeavor to take the church to the world rather than a ritualistic Sunday activity in a building. That's the way it should be.

I think it's very noble for a church to offer assistance and help worthy causes in their community and throughout the world, but many, I think, miss the opportunity to minister to their own congregations. I think it gets even harder with the mega-churches we see today. The person sitting beside us could be who needs help the most.

 

[lismore]

What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong?

It seems to me that there are three roads a believer in your situation could go down.

1) Remain in a spiritually dead church going nowhere, gradually becoming more dead inside yourself

2) Leave the faith altogether, become apostate.

3) Leave the dead assembly but keep your fervour for the Lord, your first love

It seems you have gone down route three which in my opinion is the best place for you to be. Indeed the only place.

I also quit church after eight years membership to safeguard my soul. After a few years being an unchurched Christian I now attend a church with stronger foundations, although I view everything with a more developed viewpoint now.

If you have to quit 'church' to keep your first love then so be it.

God Bless

 

[OldStudent]

I'm sure that shakings still go on, but where is all this disillusionment and separation leading the burned? What is ahead for those who can no longer attend or could care less about the hype or newest revelation? Is our lack of involvement wrong?

I am tempted to get too windy with this. I can appreciate how we get burned and discouraged. I would like to lean on the "lack of involvement" matter. It is likely the other questions will be addressed in the process.

Would you care to refine: Lack of involvement it what? Organized church as in a denomination or congregation? How would you like to be involved? Are you able to participate in some level of Christian fellowship? Are you dead in the water for some form of service or witness?

As I read Scripture involvement is always present, even assumed. Do you see the same thing? There are numerous references like: "to those meeting in the home of..." This is where I am right now.

 

[hopeinGod]

I have not been able to remain attached to a fellowship for most of my Christian walk, which began shortly after the realization that doctrinal errors exist as does the sort of leadership whose vision is more geared toward building financial empires than the church.

Even on a small scale, where up to 300 saints gathered, I was unable to be comfortable, much due to the fact that I am well able to give more than just my talent for playing bass and leading worship. I made it known at one nondenom that I was willing to teach, and was permitted a Sunday morning class, but it was run entirely by their direction. I was not permitted to speak on what the Lord would have me give and instead taught topics the elders felt were needed -- cults being one of them, can you believe it?

That's why, today, I have two websites where I share the basic truths that can lead to the formation of a foundation based on the six priciples listed in Hebrews 6. It is where I have been able to give without seeming to build on another's foundation. I'm hoping within the next couple of years my writings will total enough in quality and quantity to publish a daily devotional based on those foundational principles.

 

[OldStudent]

Your post has been taken seriously. I have needed to let thoughts simmer before attempting a reply.

I have not been able to remain attached to a fellowship for most of my Christian walk, which began shortly after the realization that doctrinal errors exist as does the sort of leadership whose vision is more geared toward building financial empires than the church.

Can you recall a “fer instance” or two of errors that turned you off?

Even on a small scale, where up to 300 saints gathered, I was unable to be comfortable, much due to the fact that I am well able to give more than just my talent for playing bass and leading worship. I made it known at one nondenom that I was willing to teach, and was permitted a Sunday morning class, but it was run entirely by their direction. I was not permitted to speak on what the Lord would have me give and instead taught topics the elders felt were needed -- cults being one of them, can you believe it?

We too were officers in “stadium” church. We got frustrated that there was little interest in getting our hands dirty executing the Great Commission. Eventually we graduated to home church as a front line missions experiment. That was a shakeup for a trained Pharisee! We find we must, however, remain members of the church as expressed in our denomination.

That's why, today, I have two websites where I share the basic truths that can lead to the formation of a foundation based on the six priciples listed in Hebrews 6. It is where I have been able to give without seeming to build on another's foundation. I'm hoping within the next couple of years my writings will total enough in quality and quantity to publish a daily devotional based on those foundational principles.

Can you point me to the general definition of the 6 principles?

What does being “able to give without seeming to build on another's foundation” mean to you?

 

[hopeinGod]

Your post has been taken seriously. I have needed to let thoughts simmer before attempting a reply.



Can you recall a “fer instance” or two of errors that turned you off?

Easily done: sheep/shepherding, WOF, anti-OSAS, impartation extremism (experience over truth and orderly, biblical, systematic training), lack of balanced teaching, a total loss of street evangelism, a catering to the hurting at the expense of dropping truths that were poorly represented or misunderstood by former leadership (in an effort not to remind or reawaken old wounds), and more

We too were officers in “stadium” church. We got frustrated that there was little interest in getting our hands dirty executing the Great Commission. Eventually we graduated to home church as a front line missions experiment. That was a shakeup for a trained Pharisee! We find we must, however, remain members of the church as expressed in our denomination.



Can you point me to the general definition of the 6 principles?

These are made up of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrine of baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. I've begun to offer these on my websites, where one is steadily growing with over 13k readers now, at Shiloh Sanctuary Forums The student must realize that these principles are learned through dedicated study and are not learned merely by reading that passage. They contain great detail and without them in a believer's life, there is no foundation, but instead a daily dose of what I term "bull messages," a point here and a point there, with a lot of bull in the middle.

What does being “able to give without seeming to build on another's foundation” mean to you?

Not trying to overtake another's leadership role in a group, even though that person's teaching may not at all be balanced. The unstudied believer has to come to his/her own decision to attend where the training is better, not through any manipulation or stealing of sheep.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Lack of involvement is not wrong . The Lord is the first and last place to go . Until that is a part of a believer , involvement is a hindrance .

Hebrews 10:24,25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Unfortunately, God tells us we need to be together. There are also scriptures that talk about God's people being the Body of Christ being held together by that which every person brings to the table so to speak.

If we don't at least join a small house group, cell group, Bible study group, we risk becoming the Lone Stranger looking for our side kick Pronto... so yeah, it's wrong to refuse to fellowship with other Christians.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Hebrews 10:24,25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Well , if you consider that the obedience to the Law is required for salvation , that is up to you . You have created a problem in that , your use of this sentence out of context contradicts one of the major themes of the letter in which it is included .

Unfortunately, God tells us we need to be together. There are also scriptures that talk about God's people being the Body of Christ being held together by that which every person brings to the table so to speak.

If we don't at least join a small house group, cell group, Bible study group, we risk becoming the Lone Stranger looking for our side kick Pronto... so yeah, it's wrong to refuse to fellowship with other Christians.

The passage that you quoted states nothing of "house groups" , "cell groups" , " bible worship groups" , or "lone ranger christians" .

To look to the law as your saviour is to have it as your god .

 

[dayhiker]

If we took these verses as literally as some would have us, we would never send missionaries because there would be no other Christians there to encourage them.

I've been missing church more Sundays the last couple of years, I've been hanging out with non Christian groups more. Result I've witnessed more than I did in years going to church every time the doors were open. Just Sunday I went to the Pats game with two new friends. I got to share my faith with them as we sat in the traffic going to the game. As much as I love worshiping God and hearing a the Word preached, I feel God is pleased with me doing what I'm doing even tho I'm missing church some Sundays.

 

[parsley]

Years ago members seemed to have influence over where our churches were heading. But I think that too many pastors felt overly strong voices carried the people off into the wind. So they shared tactics to keep a handle on things. Members used to hire the pastors for limited terms, and pastors knew they were there to serve on others' turf. Pastors could not even vote.

Then churches and denominations began to run more like businesses. The internet opened up the sharing of techniques between churches. Leaders began adopting full plans -- checklists -- and lost sight of the tenderness that used to exist between pastors and parishioners.

A denomination may be so authoritative that they hold their employees to a standard of efficiency and productivity -- I'm sure there's a lot we don't hear about. Banks and insurance companies hold churches to firmer standards.

In addition, people gain wisdom with age, and slow down with dashing after the latest trend. They also go through changes and experience which lead them to be more cautious.

Caution draws them inward, into a safer spot.

A scriptural comparison:

Ecclesiastes 1
"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher ... What advantage does man have in all his work Which he does under the sun? A generation goes and a generation comes, But the earth remains forever.

8 All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing. That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.

I said to myself, "Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge."

And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.

​

 

[giventotheLord]

I am a Spirit-filled Christian and I've been saved for 30 yrs. About 15 yrs ago I suddenly lost my zeal and began to question things about what I was being taught & yet I struggled to stay in the church. Instead I ended up listening to this guy over the radio (you'll probably know who I'm talking about) end of the church age...so I begin to be drawn away by this man's messages & yet 15 yrs before I'm in the church learning all I can...anyway he began to get a little confusing too yet this end of the church age had good points to it.

Eventually I'm entertaining other ideas outside the will of God & struggling to hold on the Lord...backsliding & desperately trying to remember scriptures I once knew & totally forgot...but something happened and the stronghold was broken b/c Jesus promised no man could pluck me out of His hand...I just knew if I made the first step any step in His direction as hard as that was...he'd have to do the rest, b/c I was powerless...

What I learned from that horrible dark time in my life was that that's how we are w/o Jesus going to hell in a hand basket...w/o the Holy Spirit calling us or Jesus dying for us & only He can save us & not we ourselves...

I believe God wanted me to know that...b/c in my past zeal I was the one going about seeking and saving those that were lost...or at least I thought I was...the error was that I merely plant the seed, it's God who saves...it's not the walking into a church bldg. it's about hearing the voice of our Saviour & Lord Jesus Christ.

Are the many that run to the church for comfort really seeking God or just a sense of belonging to God & being part of a number who'll be saved? How many serve the God of the Bible?

What I hear them talk about is being blessed w/ material things or worldly success of some kind. How many resemble anyone mentioned as examples in the Bible? Not Jesus or David or Solomon or Paul or any of the men or women there....didn't hear them talking about going to church so much as being a threat to devil who hated them for serving God...b/c they were a threat to the devil! He came to kill, steal & destroy...but Jesus came that we'd have life and abundantly....what does getting the latest smartphone or big screen tv or huge bank account have to do with going about to minister to a dying world...John the Baptist lost his head proclaiming truth in the sight of evil, so did Peter & Paul was imprisoned for speaking about this Jesus...Stephen was stoned for his holy boldness....

I tell you, these are the last days...end times, folks...excuse my English, but we ain't got no more time to play church & fix things up pretty so young folks will come play Christian versions of rock n' roll...it's time to hit your knees praying or walk or run doing it....but pray for those that are lost...learn the Word of God...b/c there is no more time to sit and watch your favorite television show or go hang out with your Christian friends!

If there's nothing inside you there won't be nothing coming out...your neighbor doesn't need to see how pious you look on Sunday & how fortunate you become b/c you go to church...they need to hear about Jesus & the Word of God in their ears..b/c that's how faith comes to believe...it's called seed.

God says Jesus will come like a thief in the night & to watch & pray! That's what's important...no time left for the balanced social life...it's about salvation for those that are lost...that Jesus gave his life for....pastors have taught us...esp. those in the body for yrs....time to go out armed with what you do know...the devil is no joke he will kill your neighbor, your child, your dog...he'll steal your job & make you do nothing but worry & never trust God again....and folks going around like business as usual...shucking and jiving while the person standing in line before them is headed for hell & you rather not speak b/c you're in a bad mood & need to go to church to snap out of it? or how to get out of your present personal woes READ your BIBLE the answer is there! Study for yourself!

Me, personally, folks, I want to wake up thanking God for the breath in my body and making the devil sorry I ever woke up & realized the battle's not mine, but the Lord & I'm not gonna shut my mouth! I am the church!!! I got the Word of God, devil...I got the name above all names, Jesus...the blood that was shed to set men free and the Holy Spirit & a bunch of angels ready to act on my behalf. My power ain't in a bldg...it's in ME!

Anywho...that's how I feel about not belonging...

...be blessed

~ T

 

[LJCTAM]

wow, that was well presented hopeinGod. I am one of those without a church. I have no clue how I will stand without fellowshipping. Online doesn't really cut it. now It is rough right and has been ever since day one of being a believer.

 

[LJCTAM]

That was inspiring giventotheLord. I will revisit this page to read your testimony again.