On Intelligent Design...

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.

My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.

If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?

Looking forward to answers.

GrowingSmaller · Dec 19, 2015

Well cant they throw that SELF SAME QUESTION back at you? What distinguishes the natural from designed? If they're identical (empirically equivalent), isnt it a free choice? Or down to interpretation and not specifically a neutral observation.Personallky I belive in creation of the univerese as a whole (ens creatum), and its a self reinforcing way of percieving. Probably boosts oxytocin and endorphins etc - a natural calming effect. Better than green tea!

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

GrowingSmaller said:
Well cant they throw that SELF SAME QUESTION back at you? What distinguishes the natural from designed? If they're identical (empirically equivalent), isnt it a free choice? Or down to interpretation and not specifically a neutral observation.Personallky I belive in creation of the univerese as a whole (ens creatum), and its a self reinforcing way of percieving. Probably boosts oxytocin and endorphins etc - a natural calming effect. Better than green tea!

Well no...I'm not claiming that everything is natural. Things which I know have been designed are designed lol.

Soul2Soul · Dec 19, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.

My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.

If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?

Looking forward to answers.

Would it be fair to assume that "natural" refers to nature (and it's laws)? And would you perhaps give an example of what you might consider to be natural/un-designed?

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

Soul2Soul said:
Would it be fair to assume that "natural" refers to nature (and it's laws)? And would you perhaps give an example of what you might consider to be natural/un-designed?

Sure, nature...it's laws...those would be things I consider "undesigned".

I don't know how familiar you are with intelligent design...but generally speaking, it's proponents claim that the entire universe and everything in it is designed.

Soul2Soul · Dec 19, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Sure, nature...it's laws...those would be things I consider "undesigned".

I don't know how familiar you are with intelligent design...but generally speaking, it's proponents claim that the entire universe and everything in it is designed.

I am aware of ID in general. Like most things there can be several takes on it!

May I get back to you sometime later? It's 10:15 Sat morning and I need to go out to do stuff. Will probably be out for most of the day. Hope that's ok. Thank you.

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

Soul2Soul said:
I am aware of ID in general. Like most things there can be several takes on it!

May I get back to you sometime later? It's 10:15 Sat morning and I need to go out to do stuff. Will probably be out for most of the day. Hope that's ok. Thank you.

Feel free...there's no time limit here.

You're welcome anytime.

Chriliman · Dec 19, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.

My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.

If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?

Looking forward to answers.

If everything in reality is designed then there must be an eternal designer(God). If this is the case then there wouldn't be anything "undesigned" except for God himself because He's always existed eternally.

Your premis that "nature" is the same as "undesign" is a flawed premis if all reality is designed by God. There simply is no reason to think anything is undesigned except for God Himself.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Dec 19, 2015

Chriliman said:
If everything in reality is designed then there must be an eternal designer(God). If this is the case then there wouldn't be anything "undesigned" except for God himself because He's always existed eternally.

Your premis that "nature" is the same as "undesign" is a flawed premis if all reality is designed by God. There simply is no reason to think anything is undesigned except for God Himself.

But if God is real, then He's part of reality, and by your logic He must also have been designed. To declare God real and undesigned would then be the fallacy of Special Pleading. If one can arbitrarily designate a complex entity as undesigned, the logic of parsimony (Ockham's Razor) suggests we should declare reality itself undesigned (and eternal), and drop the redundant entity (God).

Chriliman · Dec 19, 2015

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
But if God is real, then He's part of reality, and by your logic He must also have been designed. To declare God real and undesigned would then be the fallacy of Special Pleading. If one can arbitrarily designate a complex entity as undesigned, the logic of parsimony (Ockham's Razor) suggests we should declare reality itself undesigned (and eternal), and drop the redundant entity (God).

Ill say everything created in reality is designed. Reality itself is God, therefore reality is undesigned as you have said. Everything created in reality is designed, the reality of God is not designed or created because it is eternal.

If you take a creator away and just say reality is eternal you've stripped all explanatory power away for why we perceive design in our reality. Instead your choosing to ignore the design simply because it implies a creator and leave yourself with no other explanation. I guess some are happy with that.

JonFromMinnesota · Dec 19, 2015

Chriliman said:
If everything in reality is designed then there must be an eternal designer(God).

This sounds like the cosmological argument.

If this is the case then there wouldn't be anything "undesigned" except for God himself because He's always existed eternally.

The argument falls apart here because this is the fallacy of special pleading.

PapaZoom · Dec 19, 2015

Chriliman said:
If everything in reality is designed then there must be an eternal designer(God). If this is the case then there wouldn't be anything "undesigned" except for God himself because He's always existed eternally.

Your premis that "nature" is the same as "undesign" is a flawed premis if all reality is designed by God. There simply is no reason to think anything is undesigned except for God Himself.

I fully agree. Naming something that is undesigned is like chasing an invisible rabbit. It's just not there.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Dec 19, 2015

Chriliman said:
Ill say everything created in reality is designed. Reality itself is God, therefore reality is undesigned as you have said. Everything created in reality is designed, the reality of God is not designed or created because it is eternal.

This logic is becoming incoherent; if God is reality and also creates everything in reality, then God is creating Himself... If God is not created or designed because He is eternal, then the same can apply to an eternal universe without a God - and more plausibly, since the universe appears to follow a relatively simple set of physical laws, whereas a God worth the name (e.g. capable of designing all) that would not be an entity of simple rules.

If you take a creator away and just say reality is eternal you've stripped all explanatory power away for why we perceive design in our reality. Instead your choosing to ignore the design simply because it implies a creator and leave yourself with no other explanation. I guess some are happy with that.

There is no more explanatory power in 'God-did-it' than there is in 'It's magic'. It's more an excuse than an explanation. Also, the perception or appearance of design does not necessarily imply design - what the criteria for determining design are is a debatable subject.

You might say that, regardless of the appearance of macro-scale design that is actually the result of simple mathematical rules (e.g. crystals, plant structures, fractals), the basic organizing rules must have been designed - but if, as seems possible (even likely), the universe is a quantity of matter/energy eternally evolving according to a single overarching mathematical principle (or set of principles), I know which seems the simpler and more parsimonious explanation between that and a complex, inexplicable, omnipotent, omniscient, sentient, creator God...

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

Chriliman said:
If everything in reality is designed then there must be an eternal designer(God). If this is the case then there wouldn't be anything "undesigned" except for God himself because He's always existed eternally.

Your premis that "nature" is the same as "undesign" is a flawed premis if all reality is designed by God. There simply is no reason to think anything is undesigned except for God Himself.

That's not my premise...that's my belief...and it's not the question in the OP.

You seem to think that everything is designed, you should be able to answer the question...

What distinguishes design from non-design? If everything is designed...then what is the criteria for detecting design? How would you tell it apart from something not designed?

Without a way to determine if something is designed or not...then the entire claim that "everything is designed" falls apart.

SkyWriting · Dec 19, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
.what distinguishes design from un-designed?

"Designed" or "Created" is suggested when the likelihood of natural development is very small.

For example:
Why does rock want to become alive?
What properties do minerals (plus water) have that promote the development of life?
What advantage does life have over nonliving materials?

What are the odds?

Ana the Ist · Dec 19, 2015

SkyWriting said:
"Designed" or "Created" is suggested when the likelihood of natural development is very small.

For example:
Why does rock want to become alive?
What properties do minerals (plus water) have that promote the development of life?
What advantage does life have over nonliving materials?

What are the odds?

I don't know...I certainly don't think anyone does. You're describing statistical probabilities that don't apply to reality.

Let's describe something that we absolutely know is possible...a tree falling in the woods. Over a long enough timeline, this possibility of this event happening becomes nearly a certainty.

Yet, we could look at the same event...a tree falls in the woods...and ask, what is the probability that it would fall exactly the way it did at exactly the time it did?

Now when we consider that probability over a long enough timeline...it becomes almost impossible.

I don't see that kind of reasoning as very useful for this question...but if you think you can make it so, give it a shot.

SkyWriting · Dec 20, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
I don't know...I certainly don't think anyone does. You're describing statistical probabilities that don't apply to reality.Let's describe something that we absolutely know is possible...a tree falling in the woods. Over a long enough timeline, this possibility of this event happening becomes nearly a certainty.
Yet, we could look at the same event...a tree falls in the woods...and ask, what is the probability that it would fall exactly the way it did at exactly the time it did?Now when we consider that probability over a long enough timeline...it becomes almost impossible.I don't see that kind of reasoning as very useful for this question...but if you think you can make it so, give it a shot.

Thank you for illustrating my example.

So are there natural forces that would cause a tree to fall? Ever?
If so please list these forces and we can determine if the tree will ever fall.

Now...please list the forces that determine that matter will come alive.
List these and we will know if rocks will ever live. List them all.

motion forces
thermal
electrical
physical
meta-physical
etc.

Ana the Ist · Dec 20, 2015

SkyWriting said:
Thank you for illustrating my example.

So are there natural forces that would cause a tree to fall? Ever?
If so please list these forces and we can determine if the tree will ever fall.

Now...please list the forces that determine that matter will come alive.
List these and we will know if rocks will ever live. List them all.

motion forces
thermal
electrical
physical
meta-physical
etc.

I'm not sure what gravity has to do with my point. I'm also not sure why you think I've "illustrated your point"...since I showed we can use statistics to make the exact same event appear nearly impossible or absolutely certain.

Allow me to take another stab at this...

Did you read something about a number that some guy came up with for the probability of the universe being the way it is and decide that was a good argument for design?

SkyWriting · Dec 20, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Did you read something about a number that some guy came up with for the probability of the universe being the way it is and decide that was a good argument for design?

Now...please list the natural forces that determine that matter will come alive.
List these and we will know if rocks will ever live. Please do list them all.
1.
2.
3.
4.

To your question:
I pondered space and the lack of life.

SkyWriting · Dec 20, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
I showed we can use statistics to make the exact same event appear nearly impossible or absolutely certain.

No one bought your argument that trees don't fall.
I am buying your argument that there is no natural
reason for life.

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