On idols, icons, and idolatry

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If there is any question on the matter of Idols, the best way to figure out just what an Idol is to you personally.

Try to put it away for a Month, don't look at it or acknowledge it, if you cannot put an Inanimate Object away in this manner, then guess what?

Just to be fair, Drinking, Smoking, Porn and the like, all fall into this category as well

HTacianas said:

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

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The ark of the covenant may have been where Catholics store the bread between masses, a 'tabernacle'. It has a practical purpose if that is what it is.

Images are not idolatry an image has to be an idol for it to be implicated in idolatry.

Was the real Ark an idol??

I dont think so.
It sat in the Holy Of Holies.
It was an object made by man.

But ... God gave instructions for the Israelites to make it and carry it. Would God tell people to create an idol - if He gave them specific orders against idols? I think not.

HINT ... What was in the Ark?

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The Arc of the Covenant was not an Idol, it also had another function (Purpose) it was the Mercy Seat.

I would say the duplicating of the ark for other purposes, no matter how Religious or Spiritual they might seem to be, than that for which the Arc was originally intended should not be done.

But then again, people can always rationalize what ever it is they want to do.

HTacianas said:

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

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It all depends on how it's treated.

Al Masihi said:

Representations, nothing more.

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All idols are representations and nothing more. Every idol in every pagan cult is a representation of the god or demon in whose image it is supposedly created. If people console themselves with the notion that their sculpture or painting is only a representation, then they deceive themselves. The proof of the matter is in how they treat such a thing, which is evidence of what they expect from it, and what powers they ascribe to it. If they bow to it, pray to it, light candles or incense to it; if they ascribe powers to it, or if they ascribe anything to it that should only be ascribed to God, then they make it an idol.

In regard to the Ark of the Covenant it must be remembered that the offerings were made on the Mercy Seat, in the space between the angels to the invisible God. No offering was ever made to the angels; no prayer and no expectation of deliverance was ever given to them. They were a symbol of the angels in Heaven that surround God. In a sense, it was the space between them that was worshiped, and it was that space where God was believed to dwell.

Is it a close call? Yes, but if God appears to you in a burning bush or on a fiery mountaintop and tells you to do it, then you'd probably better do it.

HTacianas said:

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

Click to expand...

During the Old Testament when the Jews who were far away from the Temple in Jerusalem prayed, they looked towards the direction of the Temple as to worship the Shekinah Glory (divine presence) of God. So facing towards the Temple when praying was mandatory practice in acknowledging God's presence. The Ark of the Covenant was in the Holy of Holies and only the High Priest can enter therein, but once a year for making REQUESTS of God for the forgiveness of the sins of the people.

Within the New Testament, The Temple is not a material building, but a spiritual one that is not made by human hands, but is where the Holy Spirit Dwells. The Shekinah Glory as Jesus informed the Samaritan woman, that God is no longer found in a physical temple or on Mount Sinai, rather as Jesus instructed true worship is in the spirit, in perpetual observance of the Lord of the Sabbath. The Ark of the Covenant where the commandments and the hidden manna are found are within the sanctified believers.

So that many forms of worship projected into the world maybe construed as idolatry. In the case of a physical ark of the covenant, this would be teetering on the verge of rejecting the Shekinah Glory within the spiritual Temple by virtue of the fact that Jesus defined this practice as NOT a true form of worship and if it is NOT a true form of worship, then it is idolatry.

As to the symbol of the Cross without a figure on it, this is purely used as a memorial to the works of Christ, that by the Might of the Cross many are being made subjects of Jesus Christ. So as Apostle Paul declared Jesus will continue to reign through his Cross until he makes many peoples of all nations His subjects.

As to the symbols of icons and statues and the depiction of personages in the form of arts, these can be a form of deflecting material objects, that DO NOT count as true worship, meaning God does not hear requests through these multitudes of doors. However, the depiction of departed saints can be a form of a request to God, through worshipping God only and inwardly in the spirit, by asking God for you to live to the spiritual standards of that particular saint. So to avoid confusion, we are not making requests through the saint, who is a divergent door and a false form of worshipping God. The danger of making images to saints as multiple door requests is an old form of Ashira Pole worship, which is the most damnable forms of idolatry.


What is an Asherah pole in the Bible?
An Asherah pole is a sacred tree or pole that stood near Canaanite religious locations to honor the Ugaritic mother-goddess Asherah, consort of El. The relation of the literary references to an Asherah and archaeological finds of Judaean pillar-figurines has engendered a literature of debate.

So the Pagan form of worship started with an Asherah Pole depicting the Queen of Heaven with icons surrounding her as extensions to alternate forms of worship through the many doors/pathways in making requests.



What has done great damage to the Christian faith is the Mariology Gospel of the Queen of Heaven in the 6th Century, as she is called by her followers as Mother of humanity and surrounding her are other icons and doorways to her through her many minions (angelic/saints).



So where do we draw a line between what constitutes idolatry and what constitutes an inanimate memorial symbol?

It is not too complicated to answer this pertinent question. If a request is made through any other doorway other than God and His Christ, then this according to Jesus constitutes a false form of worship that the Father is displeased off. If a person makes requests of Mary or a saint then this act is construed as an alternate doorway and is diametrically opposed to what Jesus said below...

And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

Basically, the ONLY doorway that we as Christians can make our requests to with the permission and blessings of the Holy Spirit is to the Son, because the sole purpose of TRUE worship is to glorify the Father by making requests to the Son Jesus Christ. Asking Mary and/or saints DOES NOT glory the Father within the context of TRUE worship, in fact, it has an opposite effect and this is where it is deemed by God the Father as idolatry.

Note: When a person makes a request of Mary and/or saints when venerating Mary and/or saints, then this is deemed by God the Father as idolatry.

Again as far as TRUE worship is concerned there is ONLY one door for making requests to God and as for those who willfully do NOT directly come to that door are deemed disobedient to the Holy Spirit commandment, hence this is an act of defiance against The Father's Will. This is the hallmark of entrapping one's self within a false form of worship and the question that begs is...

Why do It?

Because God will not hear anyone out who makes requests through Mary and/or saints and that person has certainly got God's attention for all the wrong reasons, so why would anyone do it?

Jesus does plead with those who use the many alternate doors for making requests of God...

Here I am! I stand at the door (your hearts) and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches/Ekklesia.” (Holy Spirit Commandment for Ekklesia to Obey by making requests to Jesus ONLY)

nonaeroterraqueous said:

It all depends on how it's treated.



All idols are representations and nothing more. Every idol in every pagan cult is a representation of the god or demon in whose image it is supposedly created. If people console themselves with the notion that their sculpture or painting is only a representation, then they deceive themselves. The proof of the matter is in how they treat such a thing, which is evidence of what they expect from it, and what powers they ascribe to it. If they bow to it, pray to it, light candles or incense to it; if they ascribe powers to it, or if they ascribe anything to it that should only be ascribed to God, then they make it an idol.

In regard to the Ark of the Covenant it must be remembered that the offerings were made on the Mercy Seat, in the space between the angels to the invisible God. No offering was ever made to the angels; no prayer and no expectation of deliverance was ever given to them. They were a symbol of the angels in Heaven that surround God. In a sense, it was the space between them that was worshiped, and it was that space where God was believed to dwell.

Is it a close call? Yes, but if God appears to you in a burning bush or on a fiery mountaintop and tells you to do it, then you'd probably better do it.

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The Israelites directed their prayer towards the temple which had statues and images in it. Pagans don’t commit Idolatry because they make images, but because they worship other gods above the one true God. Anything treated above God is and idol. Icons are never treated above God or worshipped above him. Icons neve have anything ascribed to them, they are merely images of wood and paint.

Al Masihi said:

The Israelites directed their prayer towards the temple which had statues and images in it. Pagans don’t commit Idolatry because they make images, but because they worship other gods above the one true God. Anything treated above God is and idol. Icons are never treated above God or worshipped above him. Icons neve have anything ascribed to them, they are merely images of wood and paint.

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What then is the purpose they serve?

JIMINZ said:

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What then is the purpose they serve?

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The purpose is to remember the person or thing depicted, as the Israelites did to the Ark.

When I couldn't sell my house for several years it was recommended by some family that I plant a statue of St. Joseph upside down in my yard. Not that it should matter anyway but -upside down? You can buy these yard statutes on Ebay, Amazon, and Catholiccompany.com. Any idolatry here?? Or is this just garden-variety voodoo? (pun intended)

HTacianas said:

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with these things in themselves but if they are put on pedestals we (humans) tend to interpret these things on higher levels that can be irresponsible. A replica of the ark of the covenant is nothing special in its material base. You could touch it or even desecrate it and nothing would happen as it holds no power. But putting one on display and elevating it sends mixed messages where people may know in their head it is nothing but in their heart they may display feelings of adoration towards them. These things can be used effectively as tools to worship Christ but if done irresponsibly then they begin to compete with Christ. I think there was a time and place for these things but we have reached an age where rather than emphasize we should begin to deemphasize them so that Christ may be glorified.

seeking.IAM said:

The rest of your quote is "...you aren't worthy of me." It's not, "...you're practicing idolatry." We really shouldn't redefine words to mean anything we want them to mean.

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You are absolutely right that Jesus didn't use that word in that section. It may be too simplistic to call it idolatry every time you prioritize something of this world above God. But, maybe it isn't in God's sight. But, it is certainly a great way to help people understand that if God doesn't come first in your life, you may not be headed where you think you are. If you have a real relationship with God, He is your first priority in every situation.

So, when you read Ezekiel 14, how do you take "every man of the house of Israel that sets up his idols in his heart, and puts the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face...." (Eze 14:3) So, what are these "idols in his heart," if in your understanding idols are things?

When God said this "You have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon you, saith the Lord GOD...and you shall know that I am the LORD." (Eze 12). What would you call that--fearing something more than you fear God, if not adultery?

Or when "the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing.... and they have seduced my people, saying "Peace; and there was no peace...." (Eze 13:2, 10). What do you call that for the prophets who are listening to their own vain visions? What do you call it when the people are seduced (believe) those lying prophets?

From God's perspective, there may be a unique word for every situation where someone lifts something or someone above Him in their heart--and we know that "God looks at the heart"--but, to think of it as idolatry is certainly a safe and simplistic way for man to look at it. And, a much better thing, in God's sight, than helping people to justify putting things above God and getting them to think they are okay.

gideon123 said:

Was the real Ark an idol??

I dont think so.
It sat in the Holy Of Holies.
It was an object made by man.

But ... God gave instructions for the Israelites to make it and carry it. Would God tell people to create an idol - if He gave them specific orders against idols? I think not.

HINT ... What was in the Ark?

Click to expand...

I don't think that the "real" ark was an idol. Nor was the "real" Christ, the "real" cross, the "real" Mary, the "real" saints... none of them were idols.

I know it is a touchy subject within any catholic or EO church... but, do the Priests not pray in front of these statues? Do they not kiss the feet of them?

This is when I must question them when they say that they are not idols. They are certainly "idolized".

Protestants.... be careful too. We are guilty of our own idols. Nobody is innocent here. An athlete, your favorite team, a band or singer, a pet or certain type of animal that you put higher than worship of your creator....non of us are innocent of doing this at some point.. We just don't do it as the RC does.... it's still the same sin.

HTacianas said:

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

Click to expand...

One of the 10 commandments discourages the making of images/icons.

Exodus 20:4 (WEB) "You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

In recent years the Catholic Church wanted to build a retreat in Magdala by the Sea of Galilee (Yam Chinnereth). Archaeologists were sent ahead of the construction crew to excavate the site to ascertain its historical value. They discovered a small first century synagogue. Jesus might have visited the place. There was a carved stone table with decorations on it in the synagogue. The decorations were not of people, animals, or plants. The images were of amphorae, pillars and a menorah.


DQHall - 2016

I think the use of so many Jesus on the cross statues/sculptures is non-essential. It would seem rude to assume people worshiped the icons, when they walked past them and paid no attention to them. If people start trying to pray to them, it could be a problem. People are in danger of worshiping money, status symbols, celebrities, national leaders, etc.

Al Masihi said:

God would have approved idols, the Ark of the covenant wasn’t an idol as no worship was given to it, just as icons or statues in Churches aren’t idols.

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People need to understand the Second Commandment.

Bluecomet said:

People need to understand the Second Commandment.

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Yes they do, otherwise we’d end up in the same controversial state as the Church tried so hard to fix in the iconoclastic controversy.

Al Masihi said:

God would have approved idols, the Ark of the covenant wasn’t an idol as no worship was given to it, just as icons or statues in Churches aren’t idols.

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In the Bible the Hebrews thought the presence of God was in the ark.
The ancient Egyptians had an ark of a god(s) they carried around on poles balanced on their shoulders. There were two cherub statues near the center of the ark:
https://www.bible-history.com/ibh/E...ing+Incense+Before+the+Ark+of+the+God+Amen+Ra

Jesus pleads with us to make prayer requests through him only. Just believe Jesus when he promised this, because going to Jesus is the only right thing to do and this is the only way the Father is glorified.

Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Doing the will of the Father is solely through the Son, therefore leaving no doubt to the question of worship that is all about glorifying the Father through the Son and as commanded by the Holy Spirit.

HTacianas said:

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

Click to expand...

Second Commandment

There is a difference between Idol and Icon.
An 'icon' may direct your attention to the 'idol'.
I believe the danger/blasphemy is using the icon as a 'necessary' means of reaching out to the idol (our only idol who is "God").

Yet, the Catholic/Orthodox churchs sanction the use of icons, and quite often use icons as 'necessary' means to reach out to/petition God. So in that respect, such a mediator is blasphemy.

Under the Old Covenant a priest/mediator 'was' necessary/useful for our relationship/interaction with God. And when our new priest Jesus fulfilled The Law this also meant that 'any' mediator other than Jesus - is blasphemy - per the New Covenant.

Under 'Gods 'Law' - Gods mediators/the Levitical Priesthood had very strict limitations and orders, and there were no 'prayers, petitions or requests' made 'to or through' statues, icons or dead priests and 'saints'. Anything akin to that would be pagan/witchcraft (i.e. Saul and witch of Endor).

Yet any 'art' in a church building or such, is not 'necessarily' a violation of the second commandment. The second commandment does not outlaw the creation of 'art', as some have supposed*. But if you find it 'necessary' to include such 'art' or other 'representatives' (dead or alive) in, or along with, your worship/prayers you may be missing the point/relevance/means/necessity (or maybe violating the sense of the New Covenant) of the Holy New Covenant - Jesus is our Only Mediator:
"… for there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all’ (1 Timothy 2:5)

(* "Moses himself sanctioned the cherubic forms above the mercy-seat, the brazen serpent, and the lilies and pomegranates of the golden candlestick. Solomon had lions on the steps of his throne, oxen under his “molten sea,” and palm-trees, flowers, and cherubim on the walls of the Temple, “within and without...” (Ellicotts commentary on Exodus 20:4)