Patrologia Graeca is a whopping 161 volumes long. Now, you do cite it as being a work by Athanasius of Alexandria, so that does narrow it down quite a bit, but he wrote so much that there's still four whole volumes devoted just to him (volumes 25-28), and then each volume is hundreds of pages. Could you narrow things down a bit more, like saying which volume and which page it can be found on?look up the Patrologia Graeca. it’s a massive volume of Greek patristic works (like the NPNF)
I did post more on my first reference to the PGPatrologia Graeca is a whopping 161 volumes long. Now, you do cite it as being a work by Athanasius of Alexandria, so that does narrow it down quite a bit, but he wrote so much that there's still four whole volumes devoted just to him (volumes 25-28), and then each volume is hundreds of pages. Could you narrow things down a bit more, like saying which volume and which page it can be found on?
True, your original post was this:I did post more on my first reference to the PG
But that doesn't tell me what volume of Patrologia Graeca it's in or what page. To find it based on that, one has to open up all of the volumes that have Athanasius's writings and scan through the table of contents of each one until you find something that looks similar (remember, the table of contents are in Latin, not English, so one can't just look for the same name, but look for Latin with the same meaning).“Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection in our soul.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria 39th Question to Antiochos, Patrologia Graeca
There have been multiple response videos to the video you post, have you looked at them? If you want responses to the video, you might be better served by looking at the responses that do exist than coming to a forum and asking people to watch the video and then write up their own new responses.Hello!
I am sure that the EO group has familiarity of this topic so I am wondering if someone can explain.
But my view can be seen in this video. The idea is that icon veneration (worshipping through the icon) is exactly what the pagans taught and as such was condemned unanimously by the early church.
I look forward to a fruitful discussion!
well, if you want to look at it isolated from what the Church was doing. we still have very early icons from before Athanasius, which supports the quote even if you want to say it’s inaccurate.True, your original post was this:
But that doesn't tell me what volume of Patrologia Graeca it's in or what page. To find it based on that, one has to open up all of the volumes that have Athanasius's writings and scan through the table of contents of each one until you find something that looks similar (remember, the table of contents are in Latin, not English, so one can't just look for the same name, but look for Latin with the same meaning).
However, as it turns out, the citation you are referring to is not actually from one of the Athanasius volumes. I did a search for your quote to see if maybe someone else had posted it, as I suspected you had copied it from someplace else. Which seems to have been the case, as I did find it at a few places, like https://classicalchristianity.com/2012/10/26/st-athanasius-on-icons/ which told me "39th Question to Antiochos, PG 94.1365".
So it tells us, helpfully, that it's in volume 94, column 1365. Anyone can look at it for themselves at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. Note that the way it works is you have the Greek original and Latin translation parallel, which is good for me because I know basically no Greek but do know a little Latin. But we observe something odd here: That volume has works of John Damascus. So what gives? Well, what's happening is that John is offering a quote from Athanasius, attributing it to the source given, though Damascus actually writes it's the 38th Question (it's mentioned in a footnote that it's actually the 39th question in the text we have).
However, here is where we run into big problems with the quotation. Migne--the compiler of Patrologia Graeca--says something very critical in the footnote that seems to have been missed by whoever was the original source for this citation. Migne says, based on the usage of "Ubi proinde signficatur quaestiones istas non esse inagni Athanasii, sed recentioris, qui sane vixit saeculo VIII, vel octavo" which roughly means "Hence it is signified these questions are not those of Athanasius, but of someone more recent, from the eighth century". In other words, this is not an actual quote of Athanasius, but someone else entirely centuries later that John of Damascus seems to have incorrectly thought was Athanasius. Indeed, if we look into the volumes earlier, the work being quoted is in Volume 28 (one can see the applicable portion of the work at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive), but the work in question listed under "Spuria", meaning Spurious, a term used to refer to works that have been attributed to a particular author but were not their work. In other words, it is not regarded as actually being written by Athanasius of the fourth century.
To be fair, Patrologia Graeca was published in the mid 19th century, and as scholarship has improved, some works previously thought spurious are now thought to be true, and vice versa. So perhaps, while Migne regarded it as spurious, things have changed. But unless scholarship can be demonstrated to have changed in the meantime, it appears that this quote is not from Athanasius at all--and certainly, the source identified as evidence (Patrologia Graeca) denies it was him.
So this one seems a false quote.
Huh?Can't stand that guy. Totally hypocritical. He says Gavin is being uncharitable, but his entire tone is the attitude that he can't be wrong.
Huh?
There is something seriously wrong if that is all you got out of it?
What "axe" does he have to grind with him?Someone who has an axe to grind with someone usually isn't telling the truth about them. Sorry, just how I see it.
What "axe" does he have to grind with him?
Gavin may come across as very charitable, but it means nothing if he misrepresents your arguments, and if your methodology is wrong, as Craig clearly demonstrates it is, it doesn't matter how nicely you present your conclusions, you are still wrong.It's easy to see in the way he talks about Gavin, who is honestly one of the most charitable apologetics person on YouTube IMO.
That was excellent! I'm looking forward to watching the rest of the series.See also Seraphim Hamilton's videos, the first of which is as follows:
Yeah, but nobody but the Holy Trinity is ever worshipped in the Church. God's saints reflect God's glory. That is a Biblical fact and truth. So even the proper veneration of a saint is worship being directed to the Only Good God whose goodness is manifested ("wonderful") in His saints "God is wonderful in His saints:" (Psalm 67:36)Allow me to clarify some things.
I am not arguing here about relics. Nor am I denying that miracles are done through such things. That is not what the debate is about. The debate is about worshipping through the icon. It is about the idea of veneration wherefor the icon is used as a means of worship through the object. So I am not claiming that Orthodox folks worship the icons themselves. I am arguing that what the Orthodox folks believe they are doing with these icons is synonymous with what the pagans did with their idols which was unanimously rejected by the ECF until the 7th century.
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