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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Physical & Life Sciences
Creation & Evolution
On DNA percent differences between taxa and YEC timelines
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<blockquote data-quote="tas8831" data-source="post: 76248971" data-attributes="member: 397968"><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">Creationists like to assert that the 4-8% DNA difference between chimps and humans* is just too much to account for in the 5-10 million year divergence time estimate, and thus humans and chimps cannot be related via descent.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">OK... As it turns out, any 2 humans can differ by <a href="http://book.bionumbers.org/how-genetically-similar-are-two-random-people/" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(66, 105, 123)"><strong>as much as 1.6%</strong></span></a>.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">Now surely much of that is just SNPs. So, let's say the relevant difference is more like 0.5%.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">But this is still a conundrum for the young earth creationist.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">Let's take the smallest divergence time estimate for humans and chimps of 5 million years, and the highest mutation difference estimate of 8%.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">Let's make things as simplistic as possible, and just do some division to come up with a mutation rate:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">8% of 3 billion base pairs is 240,000,000 mutations (for simplicity, I am lumping indel events in the mix).</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">240,000,000/5 million years = <strong>48 mutations per year</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">But what about 2 humans, in a YEC perspective?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">0.5% of 3 billion base pairs = 15,000,000,</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">15,000,000 mutations in 10,000 years (max time since Genesis) = <strong>1,500</strong> mutations <strong>PER YEAR</strong>.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">So.. the creationist claims 48 mutations per year is just too much to occur if evolution is true, thus humans and chimps are not related, BUT 1,500 mutations per year in 10,000 years between 2 humans is totally cool!</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">That is, in order to accept YECism genetics, one has to be totally fine with a human mutation rate some 30x that seen in reality-based evolution, which the YECist claims is way too much.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)">Another day in YEC land...</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"><em>ADDED IN EDIT: Oops! Forgot to add - *these numbers are based on a range of percentages and divergence times that I have seen used in various sources, I am not taking a stand on any specific number.</em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Open Sans'"><span style="color: rgb(44, 44, 44)"></span></span></p><p><em><span style="color: #2c2c2c">Also - I posted this on another forum and not 1 creationist could even try to offer an explanation.</span></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tas8831, post: 76248971, member: 397968"] [FONT=Open Sans][COLOR=rgb(44, 44, 44)] Creationists like to assert that the 4-8% DNA difference between chimps and humans* is just too much to account for in the 5-10 million year divergence time estimate, and thus humans and chimps cannot be related via descent. OK... As it turns out, any 2 humans can differ by [URL='http://book.bionumbers.org/how-genetically-similar-are-two-random-people/'][COLOR=rgb(66, 105, 123)][B]as much as 1.6%[/B][/COLOR][/URL].[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 44, 44)] Now surely much of that is just SNPs. So, let's say the relevant difference is more like 0.5%. But this is still a conundrum for the young earth creationist. Let's take the smallest divergence time estimate for humans and chimps of 5 million years, and the highest mutation difference estimate of 8%. Let's make things as simplistic as possible, and just do some division to come up with a mutation rate: 8% of 3 billion base pairs is 240,000,000 mutations (for simplicity, I am lumping indel events in the mix). 240,000,000/5 million years = [B]48 mutations per year[/B] But what about 2 humans, in a YEC perspective? 0.5% of 3 billion base pairs = 15,000,000, 15,000,000 mutations in 10,000 years (max time since Genesis) = [B]1,500[/B] mutations [B]PER YEAR[/B]. So.. the creationist claims 48 mutations per year is just too much to occur if evolution is true, thus humans and chimps are not related, BUT 1,500 mutations per year in 10,000 years between 2 humans is totally cool! That is, in order to accept YECism genetics, one has to be totally fine with a human mutation rate some 30x that seen in reality-based evolution, which the YECist claims is way too much. Another day in YEC land... [I]ADDED IN EDIT: Oops! Forgot to add - *these numbers are based on a range of percentages and divergence times that I have seen used in various sources, I am not taking a stand on any specific number.[/I] [/COLOR][/FONT] [I][COLOR=#2c2c2c]Also - I posted this on another forum and not 1 creationist could even try to offer an explanation.[/COLOR][/I] [/QUOTE]
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