On "Christian" Rock (With Dio)??

[Kokavkrystallos]

Last night at Bible study it was brought up that the lead singer of Kansas had at one time become a Christian, and made an album "Seeds of Change" which had a song "Mask of the Great Deceiver" on it, and it featured Ronnie J. Dio. I had never heard the song, surprisingly, as it was released in 1980. I should say, I never CONSCIOUSLY heard the song, because I may have heard it if it got airplay on any rock station and I was completely toasted at the time, and considered it just another cool Dio song, as I'd have recognized his voice.

I don't believe Christian Rock, at least the heavy stuff is of God, and not in line with his holiness. Especially anything that uses the so called "devils" chord of the flat fifth or any variation thereof, which Black Sabbath was notorious for, and Dio was also with Sabbath at that time.

I also looked this up from an interview in 2001 with Dio:
"So again I early on realised that religion is that if you believe in a god, that God resides in you, and if you believe in the devil, and I believe in both. I don’t mean a physical devil, a devil sitting there with horns or a god sitting there looking white with long hair. You know he may be purple with no hair, he may be black, he may be she. You know. But I don’t think of God in those terms.”

“To me, God and the Devil is in me, is in you, and you, and you, and you. So we have to make a determination as to which road we are going to travel. The good road or the bad road. A lot of people travel the middle road.”

“I tend not to do that, I prefer not to do that. So I prefer to be as good as I possibly can. I can do that because I understand that there is a dark side and they have to be balanced. We have to have evil in our lives to have good and we must have good to have evil. That’s my religion. My religion is people, I believe in people. No matter how bad they can be, I think they can be changed.”

I found this on rockandrollgarage . com but didn't post the link cuz he says a cuss word in the beginning.

Another interview reveals this:
"I don’t believe in Heaven and Hell as place to go that, you know. When we die, we’re going to go down and burn for a while or if we were good we gonna go up there and be happy for a while. Or purgatory, in purgatory where all the poor and non-baptized babies are hanging out. I think that anybody who came out with that idea that there’s gonna be a place where a little ‘children’ gonna be hanging out for the rest of their lives is either the sickest person on earth or the stupidest person on earth.”

“So I don’t believe in any of those things. Heaven and hell is right here, this where we are, this is heaven and this is Hell, you make your own heaven and you make your own hell. Hell, good and evil, God, the Devil reside in each one of us. I don’t have to go to a place to pray. So I pray inside myself, I can pray to whomever I want to inside myself and get the same results."

So we have a guy who's obviously lost by his own admission, sadly, but then singing lead with another rock musician who says he was saved, and this is what Wikipedia article has to say of Kerry Livrens conversion:

"In early 1979, Livgren became interested in The Urantia Book, a series of papers that claim to be a revelation authored by supernatural beings. Its influence can be felt in the lyrics of Kansas' 1979 album Monolith. Livgren subsequently rejected Urantia doctrine, and while on tour with the band in support of Monolith, he converted to Christianity. This was a result of a series of debates in the back of the tour bus with Jeff Pollard of Louisiana's Le Roux, the opening act for Kansas during the tour. The discussions between Livgren and Pollard concerned whether the Bible or the Urantia Book was the accurate record of the life of Jesus Christ. Because of the debates, Livgren became convinced that the Bible was the genuine record of Christ and that he had been mistaken in following the teachings of the Urantia Book. After a private hotel-room conversion experience, he became an evangelical Christian.

In 1980, Livgren released his first solo album, Seeds of Change. The album features several members of Kansas, along with Ambrosia singer David Pack and noted heavy-metal singer Ronnie James Dio, who sang on the tracks "To Live for the King" and "Mask of the Great Deceiver".

Livgren recorded three more albums with Kansas. However, tension was growing among the band members as a result of the increasingly Christian perspective of his lyrics. Walsh left the band near the end of 1981 as a result. Steinhardt also left, for personal reasons, prior to recording of the band's 1983 Drastic Measures album. Meanwhile, Livgren had also become increasingly dissatisfied with the band's musical direction (at least in part due to his newfound faith), and he would leave the band himself shortly after Drastic Measures was released."

Now personally I don't trust any of it, and only Almighty and All Knowing God knows if Kerry's conversion was genuine. There are people who get saved and remain carnal, as Paul warned the Corinthians, one of whom was committing incest. But Jesus also said ye shall know them by their fruits, and not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, except he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven.
Paul writes specifically about being unequally yoked with unbelievers, and Kerry obviously continued to do that, especially by joining forces with a guy especially known for dark metal, who basically denied Christ and chose some new age, "God is within you however you perceive him" junk.

I partially listened to "Mask of the Great Deceiver" - Most people would just rock to like any other song. I couldn't listen to all of it, so I skipped around to catch different portion. I mean, Black Sabbath with Ozzy sang about "God" in a positive way in some songs, but it doesn't matter when the music itself is of the devil (And Satan CAN and DOES create music: Ezekiel 28:13), and the audience is a bunch of stoners, trippers, and drunks mostly, and you promote drug use in your songs). It's also a genre of music very well known for it's loose morals and drug use, and the term "rock n roll" originally was a blues term for having sex...

So, I'm interested on people's thoughts on this, and I do realize some people listen to Christian Rock, though I think that's flirting with darkness, or at least compromise. It's definitely up the alley of Christian ethics.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" - 1 John 2:15-17


"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" - Hebrews 12:14

 

[FenderTL5]

Last night at Bible study it was brought up that the lead singer of Kansas had at one time become a Christian, and made an album "Seeds of Change" which had a song "Mask of the Great Deceiver" on it, and it featured Ronnie J. Dio. I had never heard the song, surprisingly, as it was released in 1980. I should say, I never CONSCIOUSLY heard the song, because I may have heard it if it got airplay on any rock station and I was completely toasted at the time, and considered it just another cool Dio song, as I'd have recognized his voice.

I don't believe Christian Rock, at least the heavy stuff is of God, and not in line with his holiness. Especially anything that uses the so called "devils" chord of the flat fifth or any variation thereof, which Black Sabbath was notorious for, and Dio was also with Sabbath at that time.

I also looked this up from an interview in 2001 with Dio:
"So again I early on realised that religion is that if you believe in a god, that God resides in you, and if you believe in the devil, and I believe in both. I don’t mean a physical devil, a devil sitting there with horns or a god sitting there looking white with long hair. You know he may be purple with no hair, he may be black, he may be she. You know. But I don’t think of God in those terms.”

“To me, God and the Devil is in me, is in you, and you, and you, and you. So we have to make a determination as to which road we are going to travel. The good road or the bad road. A lot of people travel the middle road.”

“I tend not to do that, I prefer not to do that. So I prefer to be as good as I possibly can. I can do that because I understand that there is a dark side and they have to be balanced. We have to have evil in our lives to have good and we must have good to have evil. That’s my religion. My religion is people, I believe in people. No matter how bad they can be, I think they can be changed.”

I found this on rockandrollgarage . com but didn't post the link cuz he says a cuss word in the beginning.

Another interview reveals this:
"I don’t believe in Heaven and Hell as place to go that, you know. When we die, we’re going to go down and burn for a while or if we were good we gonna go up there and be happy for a while. Or purgatory, in purgatory where all the poor and non-baptized babies are hanging out. I think that anybody who came out with that idea that there’s gonna be a place where a little ‘children’ gonna be hanging out for the rest of their lives is either the sickest person on earth or the stupidest person on earth.”

“So I don’t believe in any of those things. Heaven and hell is right here, this where we are, this is heaven and this is Hell, you make your own heaven and you make your own hell. Hell, good and evil, God, the Devil reside in each one of us. I don’t have to go to a place to pray. So I pray inside myself, I can pray to whomever I want to inside myself and get the same results."

So we have a guy who's obviously lost by his own admission, sadly, but then singing lead with another rock musician who says he was saved, and this is what Wikipedia article has to say of Kerry Livrens conversion:

"In early 1979, Livgren became interested in The Urantia Book, a series of papers that claim to be a revelation authored by supernatural beings. Its influence can be felt in the lyrics of Kansas' 1979 album Monolith. Livgren subsequently rejected Urantia doctrine, and while on tour with the band in support of Monolith, he converted to Christianity. This was a result of a series of debates in the back of the tour bus with Jeff Pollard of Louisiana's Le Roux, the opening act for Kansas during the tour. The discussions between Livgren and Pollard concerned whether the Bible or the Urantia Book was the accurate record of the life of Jesus Christ. Because of the debates, Livgren became convinced that the Bible was the genuine record of Christ and that he had been mistaken in following the teachings of the Urantia Book. After a private hotel-room conversion experience, he became an evangelical Christian.

In 1980, Livgren released his first solo album, Seeds of Change. The album features several members of Kansas, along with Ambrosia singer David Pack and noted heavy-metal singer Ronnie James Dio, who sang on the tracks "To Live for the King" and "Mask of the Great Deceiver".

Livgren recorded three more albums with Kansas. However, tension was growing among the band members as a result of the increasingly Christian perspective of his lyrics. Walsh left the band near the end of 1981 as a result. Steinhardt also left, for personal reasons, prior to recording of the band's 1983 Drastic Measures album. Meanwhile, Livgren had also become increasingly dissatisfied with the band's musical direction (at least in part due to his newfound faith), and he would leave the band himself shortly after Drastic Measures was released."

Now personally I don't trust any of it, and only Almighty and All Knowing God knows if Kerry's conversion was genuine. There are people who get saved and remain carnal, as Paul warned the Corinthians, one of whom was committing incest. But Jesus also said ye shall know them by their fruits, and not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, except he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven.
Paul writes specifically about being unequally yoked with unbelievers, and Kerry obviously continued to do that, especially by joining forces with a guy especially known for dark metal, who basically denied Christ and chose some new age, "God is within you however you perceive him" junk.

I partially listened to "Mask of the Great Deceiver" - Most people would just rock to like any other song. I couldn't listen to all of it, so I skipped around to catch different portion. I mean, Black Sabbath with Ozzy sang about "God" in a positive way in some songs, but it doesn't matter when the music itself is of the devil (And Satan CAN and DOES create music: Ezekiel 28:13), and the audience is a bunch of stoners, trippers, and drunks mostly, and you promote drug use in your songs). It's also a genre of music very well known for it's loose morals and drug use, and the term "rock n roll" originally was a blues term for having sex...

So, I'm interested on people's thoughts on this, and I do realize some people listen to Christian Rock, though I think that's flirting with darkness, or at least compromise. It's definitely up the alley of Christian ethics.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" - 1 John 2:15-17


"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" - Hebrews 12:14

Your post starts with a glaring error that could offer a small bit of clarity on some of your post; Kerry Livgren was NOT the lead singer in Kansas. To my knowledge, he's not a singer. That explains why Seeds of Change utilized several guest singers, including Dio.

I don't agree that there's anything inherently demonic or evil with a flat five. It's just music. You've probably heard it in other genres of music and never given it a second thought.

It is interesting that you use Dio as the basis to judge/criticize Livgren's (newfound at the time) faith. I read his book, also titled Seeds of Change, and it went into depth on his journey to faith. iirc, he was very commited at that time. Where he is now, i don't ptretend to know. I hope/pray he's grown in the faith and becoming more like Christ.

I enjoy some but not all of Livgren's music. As for Christian rock in general, there's some I like but I haven't listened to CCM except in passing since the early 2000s. I do still play the first few albums that the group Iona released from time to time. As entertainment I find that it's less spiritually oppressing than some of the alternatives. ymmv

 

[dzheremi]

I believe it is somewhere in his series of lectures entitled "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" hosted on Ancient Faith Radio that Fr. Stephen Damick points out that Christian rock is part of the neo-Evangelical drive to create "Christian"-branded versions of everything that secular culture produces: instead of watching secular movies, watch "Christian" ones; instead of listening to secular music, listen to "Christian" music; etc., etc. He also points out that this fails with regard to genres like rock'n'roll because, quite simply, "the world's" rock'n'roll is better than the "Christian" alternative. As someone with immediate family in the rock'n'roll music business from 1970 until now (my father retired in 2010, but my brother continues on the family legacy of sorts), I would agree with that assessment.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Last night at Bible study it was brought up that the lead singer of Kansas had at one time become a Christian, and made an album "Seeds of Change" which had a song "Mask of the Great Deceiver" on it, and it featured Ronnie J. Dio. I had never heard the song, surprisingly, as it was released in 1980. I should say, I never CONSCIOUSLY heard the song, because I may have heard it if it got airplay on any rock station and I was completely toasted at the time, and considered it just another cool Dio song, as I'd have recognized his voice.

I don't believe Christian Rock, at least the heavy stuff is of God, and not in line with his holiness. Especially anything that uses the so called "devils" chord of the flat fifth or any variation thereof, which Black Sabbath was notorious for, and Dio was also with Sabbath at that time.

I also looked this up from an interview in 2001 with Dio:
"So again I early on realised that religion is that if you believe in a god, that God resides in you, and if you believe in the devil, and I believe in both. I don’t mean a physical devil, a devil sitting there with horns or a god sitting there looking white with long hair. You know he may be purple with no hair, he may be black, he may be she. You know. But I don’t think of God in those terms.”

“To me, God and the Devil is in me, is in you, and you, and you, and you. So we have to make a determination as to which road we are going to travel. The good road or the bad road. A lot of people travel the middle road.”

“I tend not to do that, I prefer not to do that. So I prefer to be as good as I possibly can. I can do that because I understand that there is a dark side and they have to be balanced. We have to have evil in our lives to have good and we must have good to have evil. That’s my religion. My religion is people, I believe in people. No matter how bad they can be, I think they can be changed.”

I found this on rockandrollgarage . com but didn't post the link cuz he says a cuss word in the beginning.

Another interview reveals this:
"I don’t believe in Heaven and Hell as place to go that, you know. When we die, we’re going to go down and burn for a while or if we were good we gonna go up there and be happy for a while. Or purgatory, in purgatory where all the poor and non-baptized babies are hanging out. I think that anybody who came out with that idea that there’s gonna be a place where a little ‘children’ gonna be hanging out for the rest of their lives is either the sickest person on earth or the stupidest person on earth.”

“So I don’t believe in any of those things. Heaven and hell is right here, this where we are, this is heaven and this is Hell, you make your own heaven and you make your own hell. Hell, good and evil, God, the Devil reside in each one of us. I don’t have to go to a place to pray. So I pray inside myself, I can pray to whomever I want to inside myself and get the same results."

So we have a guy who's obviously lost by his own admission, sadly, but then singing lead with another rock musician who says he was saved, and this is what Wikipedia article has to say of Kerry Livrens conversion:

"In early 1979, Livgren became interested in The Urantia Book, a series of papers that claim to be a revelation authored by supernatural beings. Its influence can be felt in the lyrics of Kansas' 1979 album Monolith. Livgren subsequently rejected Urantia doctrine, and while on tour with the band in support of Monolith, he converted to Christianity. This was a result of a series of debates in the back of the tour bus with Jeff Pollard of Louisiana's Le Roux, the opening act for Kansas during the tour. The discussions between Livgren and Pollard concerned whether the Bible or the Urantia Book was the accurate record of the life of Jesus Christ. Because of the debates, Livgren became convinced that the Bible was the genuine record of Christ and that he had been mistaken in following the teachings of the Urantia Book. After a private hotel-room conversion experience, he became an evangelical Christian.

In 1980, Livgren released his first solo album, Seeds of Change. The album features several members of Kansas, along with Ambrosia singer David Pack and noted heavy-metal singer Ronnie James Dio, who sang on the tracks "To Live for the King" and "Mask of the Great Deceiver".

Livgren recorded three more albums with Kansas. However, tension was growing among the band members as a result of the increasingly Christian perspective of his lyrics. Walsh left the band near the end of 1981 as a result. Steinhardt also left, for personal reasons, prior to recording of the band's 1983 Drastic Measures album. Meanwhile, Livgren had also become increasingly dissatisfied with the band's musical direction (at least in part due to his newfound faith), and he would leave the band himself shortly after Drastic Measures was released."

Now personally I don't trust any of it, and only Almighty and All Knowing God knows if Kerry's conversion was genuine. There are people who get saved and remain carnal, as Paul warned the Corinthians, one of whom was committing incest. But Jesus also said ye shall know them by their fruits, and not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, except he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven.
Paul writes specifically about being unequally yoked with unbelievers, and Kerry obviously continued to do that, especially by joining forces with a guy especially known for dark metal, who basically denied Christ and chose some new age, "God is within you however you perceive him" junk.

I partially listened to "Mask of the Great Deceiver" - Most people would just rock to like any other song. I couldn't listen to all of it, so I skipped around to catch different portion. I mean, Black Sabbath with Ozzy sang about "God" in a positive way in some songs, but it doesn't matter when the music itself is of the devil (And Satan CAN and DOES create music: Ezekiel 28:13), and the audience is a bunch of stoners, trippers, and drunks mostly, and you promote drug use in your songs). It's also a genre of music very well known for it's loose morals and drug use, and the term "rock n roll" originally was a blues term for having sex...

So, I'm interested on people's thoughts on this, and I do realize some people listen to Christian Rock, though I think that's flirting with darkness, or at least compromise. It's definitely up the alley of Christian ethics.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" - 1 John 2:15-17


"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" - Hebrews 12:14

Because you're unknowingly stepping on my toes by posting this thread of yours, especially where my valuing of a brother in Christ like Kerry Livgren is concerned, and because I can see that you've barely done any research, I'm just going to let you know that this whole "thing" you're attempting to tease out is one I wrestled with, quite severely for about a year or two, early on in my own Christian life (way back in the late 1980s).

As for my own resolution of it, and because I incorporate an entire load of discernment on this "rock n'roll" issue, I just throw it into the Romans chapter 14 bucket and let each person work it out for him or herself ...

 

[FenderTL5]

I believe it is somewhere in his series of lectures entitled "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" hosted on Ancient Faith Radio that Fr. Stephen Damick points out that Christian rock is part of the neo-Evangelical drive to create "Christian"-branded versions of everything that secular culture produces: instead of watching secular movies, watch "Christian" ones; instead of listening to secular music, listen to "Christian" music; etc., etc. He also points out that this fails with regard to genres like rock'n'roll because, quite simply, "the world's" rock'n'roll is better than the "Christian" alternative. As someone with immediate family in the rock'n'roll music business from 1970 until now (my father retired in 2010, but my brother continues on the family legacy of sorts), I would agree with that assessment.

I tend to agree with Fr Damick, the Christian counter-culture idea seemed to b more prevelant in the 80s, early 90s. I recall Christian business guides and music comparison charts (if you like mainstream-x then listen to CCM-y) etc but then again - I've been removed from it for several years now.

 

[Citanul]

I don't agree that there's anything inherently demonic or evil with a flat five. It's just music. You've probably heard it in other genres of music and never given it a second thought.

Dominant 7th chords have a tritone interval, and given that they're a standard jazz chord that would make jazz the most demonic of genres...

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

Because you're unknowingly stepping on my toes by posting this thread of yours, especially where my valuing of a brother in Christ like Kerry Livgren is concerned, and because I can see that you've barely done any research, I'm just going to let you know that this whole "thing" you're attempting to tease out is one I wrestled with, quite severely for about a year or two, early on in my own Christian life (way back in the late 1980s).

As for my own resolution of it, and because I incorporate an entire load of discernment on this "rock n'roll" issue, I just throw it into the Romans chapter 14 bucket and let each person work it out for him or herself ...

Romans 14 is one of the most misused passages in the scriptures, for the sake of blurring the line between the church and the world. Are you familiar with the origins of rock music? There is no denying that the founding fathers of this genre were satanic. A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit. And no, it is not the christian’s duty to ‘reclaim things of the world for Christ’ as I often hear, that isn’t scriptural at all. Christians are to come up out of the world, and be set apart. Not blend in with it, or blur the line, which is what ‘Christian’ contemporary music does.

The best in the rock business were virtually all inspired by the demonic man Aleister Crowley. And where do all ‘Christian’ rock musicians get their influence from? The pagan, atheist, and aesthetic (or religious) satanists in the secular arena. The New Age advocates, abortionists, drunks, druggies, serial fornicators, etc. Did you know that the term ‘rock & roll’ itself is a reference to fornication in the back of a car? Look it up if you don’t believe me. It is sort of cringe to me to hear the term ‘Christian rock’.

Also, many within the ‘Christian’ music industry aren’t really even christian, but those who failed to make it in the secular industry and sought out a niche market amongst less talented competition. Or they are false converts who wanted to hold on to their worldliness. As it was mentioned earlier, these ‘Christian’ contemporary musicians are nowhere near as talented as the secular. It’s the truth no one seems to want to admit. I’ve come across people who tried switching from secular to ‘Christian’ forms of the music they listened to as pagans. And they’d just end up going back to the hardcore, and more talented pagan and atheist musicians in the secular industry.

Aleister Crowley was a man who wanted to wipe the Christian Faith off the earth, and many of his disciples; the legends of rock music, greatly assisted in seeing his vision begin to come to fruition. Look how society has changed since rock music and all its various offshoots (rap, r&b, pop, etc) took over. It is far more satanic.

Now I won’t even give someone a hard time at all if they listen to secular music. Maybe it is just me but it gives me a very dark vibe when I see watered down ‘Christian’ messages being sang over sensual music like rock..trying to unite a watered down version of light with darkness. Here is a true story. Back when I was a pagan I was on a trip out of town, I was on the interstate channel surfing for a radio station and finally came across one with the rugged, grimy, hardcore, basically wicked sound which I enjoyed. Then I became very shocked, even uncomfortable at what I was hearing..the lyrics were ‘Christian’ and I remember thinking to myself even as a pagan who embraced many sins, wow this is a dishonor to God, mixing Him in with this same type of music we party and get high to, hear in the strip clubs, fornicate with women to, etc. I had to cut it off. Something about it felt waaaaayyy off. And that says a lot because I’ve heard some of the most vile stuff ever recorded.

What people forget about Romans 14 is the part of being a stumbling block. Upon conversion/rebirth people want to get away from the sounds they used to ride around getting high to, partying and fornicating to. Romans 14 makes no mention of mixing light (so-called) with darkness. And no one can deny that rock music’s foundation was built on darkness. In the 60’s it even popularized New Age/Mysticism and other antichrist ideologies with bands like The Beatles and The Doors. Not to pick on rock either. This ‘Christian’ rap is just as bad if not worse. Because the production methods and other elements used in most modern rap and ‘Christian’ rap are a ripoff from a production style which originated in the mid 1990’s by a group who’s very name is a reference to satan. I won’t even mention the name and would likely be banned for even mentioning the topics covered in graphic detail within their music. But their sound is ‘the current thing’ in the ‘Christian’ rap genre. It is pretty disturbing tbh.

In Romans 14 only food, drink, and observance of days is mentioned..OT ceremonial law, dietary & sabbath. Nothing about mixing pagan ways with a watered down gospel message. The misuse of that passage helps keep more people in the pews, which means more tithes and offerings. It is a business strategy; not biblical doctrine. In regards to ‘Christian’ rock it seems more appropriate to file it under 2 Timothy 2:22 instead:

“Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.”

The fact that so many people make such a big deal over worldly music suggests that it holds dominion over them, and the music itself is designed to do just that. We’ve all heard it before ‘I can’t get this song out of my head even though I hate it’. Think about that for a minute.

And the musicians themselves with their live shows, lifting themselves up on a stage and bringing the focus on them and the music rather than Christ, they increase while He decreases, then you have the smoke machines and light shows and all that influenced by the demonic inspired secular rock musicians..it’s all pride and vanity. It isn’t ‘worship’. Not of Christ anyway, but the performers. And it is a billion dollar industry. That isn’t what Christ came to establish until His return.

With all due respect I mean no offense partner but how much discernment do you really have on this issue as you claim? The term ‘rock & roll’ itself is a slang term for fornication in the back of a car, coined by a radio DJ. And all the ‘Christian’ musicians they all use the same masonic/occult symbolism on their album covers, clothes, etc. The lyrics are a watered down ‘Christian’ message at best. Many times not even doctrinally sound. And let’s not kid ourselves, people listen to it for the instrumentation and production techniques, it’s the first thing they notice. How many people would listen to ‘Christian’ contemporary music acapella style no music? It is the pagan inspired instrumentation and production that brings in listeners, the aspects which appeal to the flesh. It’s the truth.

One thing I notice is how offended many people get over things like worldly music, the pagan holidays of Easter & Christmas, things like that. Most professing Christians fight harder for those things than they do Christ. It’s true. I’ve seen it many times which brings suggests such things cannot be good.

 

[Palmfever]

On the origins of rock music here is an informative article. The origin was much sooner than the 70s, 80s.

Rock | Definition, History, Artists, Songs, & Facts | Britannica

Rock is a form of popular music that emerged in the 1950s and that by the end of the 20th century was the world’s dominant form of popular music. It originated in the United States and spread to other English-speaking countries and across Europe in the 1960s.

www.britannica.com

As for the father of Christian rock, Larry Norman is considered to be the one.

How Did Larry Norman Become the Father of Christian Rock?

Larry Norman invented what we now call Christian rock, and therefore may be the father of Contemporary Christian Music. So why did he have such as hard time fitting into the genre he created?

www.christianity.com

 

[Niels]

Music is a language. As such, it can be used for good, bad, and everything in between. There is plenty of room for grey area in music as it primarily communicates feelings and abstract concepts, along with inherent mathematical structures.

A musician's abilities come from God, regardless of whether they are Christian or not. Satan may have musical ability, but it's much like his linguistic ability. He would not be able to make music if God did not first create in him the ability to make music. Angels share this ability and, more importantly, God created music itself.

The way I see it, a Christian who makes rock music is no more inherently under Satan's influence than a Christian who uses language. Regardless of whether we're talking about heavy metal or classical. Both of which, incidentally, share a lot in common.

So, what is the problem then? Clearly, the "rock & roll lifestyle" is problematic. I don't disagree. But are these problems unique to the music scene? I would say no. Similar dynamics happen in art, literature, politics, and other facets of human interaction. The problem, in my opinion, is celebrity worship. If music is a language, and we are free to use language, then we should feel free to do the same with music. To make music with our families, with our friends, and for our own amusement.

When we turn music into celebrity worship, or idol worship, we lose sight of the path. Our priorities are wrong. It doesn't matter if it's secular or CCM. Which isn't to say that it's wrong for some songs to be more popular than others. Rather, we must keep in mind that musicians are just people like us. And we should not lose sight of our own music in the process. Where there are problems, the common denominator is celebrity worship. It not only messes with the heads of the listener, but with the heads of the musicians. Unfortunately, not all can handle the fame and some even take their own lives in the process. Or, as a fan, they lose sight of the music or spark within themselves. The dynamic between the musician and the fan should be more like the dynamic between the talker and the listener than that of an idol and an idol worshiper. And like the talker/listener dynamic, the listener should not forget that they also have a voice. That they also have things to say and do. Things that are ultimately far more important in their own lives than whatever a celebrity might happen to do.

One way to address this problem is through better music education. Democratize music. Put musical training in the hands of as many people as possible, so at least they understand it. Expose them to different genres while pointing out the similarities. Demystify what music is, as a form of language, and give them the means to make and appreciate music in their own lives. Take music back from the celebrities. Feel free to go to concerts and enjoy the show, but keep in mind that it isn't something that we should worship people over. Fame, and the pursuit of it, is dangerous. Treat both with caution. Our worship should be directed toward God and God alone. Not toward musicians, but to the Lord of Lords. He is the one we should worship, regardless of whether we worship him with our music, with other language, with our tools, or with our time.

Our priorities need to be right. That way we won't be led astray by melodies and rhythms as happens with words and books. By all means avoid the songs and other things that cause you to stumble. Instead focus on what puts you in a better state of mind, but we should be able to listen and read without our faith being shaken. In fact, we might then better appreciate the music for what it is rather than what it's not.

We might likewise allow each other to express the music within ourselves on an individual and community level without the looming shadow of celebrity culture and the evils that often accompany it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Romans 14 is one of the most misused passages in the scriptures, for the sake of blurring the line between the church and the world. Are you familiar with the origins of rock music? There is no denying that the founding fathers of this genre were satanic. A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit. And no, it is not the christian’s duty to ‘reclaim things of the world for Christ’ as I often hear, that isn’t scriptural at all. Christians are to come up out of the world, and be set apart. Not blend in with it, or blur the line, which is what ‘Christian’ contemporary music does.

The best in the rock business were virtually all inspired by the demonic man Aleister Crowley. And where do all ‘Christian’ rock musicians get their influence from? The pagan, atheist, and aesthetic (or religious) satanists in the secular arena. The New Age advocates, abortionists, drunks, druggies, serial fornicators, etc. Did you know that the term ‘rock & roll’ itself is a reference to fornication in the back of a car? Look it up if you don’t believe me. It is sort of cringe to me to hear the term ‘Christian rock’.

Also, many within the ‘Christian’ music industry aren’t really even christian, but those who failed to make it in the secular industry and sought out a niche market amongst less talented competition. Or they are false converts who wanted to hold on to their worldliness. As it was mentioned earlier, these ‘Christian’ contemporary musicians are nowhere near as talented as the secular. It’s the truth no one seems to want to admit. I’ve come across people who tried switching from secular to ‘Christian’ forms of the music they listened to as pagans. And they’d just end up going back to the hardcore, and more talented pagan and atheist musicians in the secular industry.

Aleister Crowley was a man who wanted to wipe the Christian Faith off the earth, and many of his disciples; the legends of rock music, greatly assisted in seeing his vision begin to come to fruition. Look how society has changed since rock music and all its various offshoots (rap, r&b, pop, etc) took over. It is far more satanic.

Now I won’t even give someone a hard time at all if they listen to secular music. Maybe it is just me but it gives me a very dark vibe when I see watered down ‘Christian’ messages being sang over sensual music like rock..trying to unite a watered down version of light with darkness. Here is a true story. Back when I was a pagan I was on a trip out of town, I was on the interstate channel surfing for a radio station and finally came across one with the rugged, grimy, hardcore, basically wicked sound which I enjoyed. Then I became very shocked, even uncomfortable at what I was hearing..the lyrics were ‘Christian’ and I remember thinking to myself even as a pagan who embraced many sins, wow this is a dishonor to God, mixing Him in with this same type of music we party and get high to, hear in the strip clubs, fornicate with women to, etc. I had to cut it off. Something about it felt waaaaayyy off. And that says a lot because I’ve heard some of the most vile stuff ever recorded.

What people forget about Romans 14 is the part of being a stumbling block. Upon conversion/rebirth people want to get away from the sounds they used to ride around getting high to, partying and fornicating to. Romans 14 makes no mention of mixing light (so-called) with darkness. And no one can deny that rock music’s foundation was built on darkness. In the 60’s it even popularized New Age/Mysticism and other antichrist ideologies with bands like The Beatles and The Doors. Not to pick on rock either. This ‘Christian’ rap is just as bad if not worse. Because the production methods and other elements used in most modern rap and ‘Christian’ rap are a ripoff from a production style which originated in the mid 1990’s by a group who’s very name is a reference to satan. I won’t even mention the name and would likely be banned for even mentioning the topics covered in graphic detail within their music. But their sound is ‘the current thing’ in the ‘Christian’ rap genre. It is pretty disturbing tbh.

In Romans 14 only food, drink, and observance of days is mentioned..OT ceremonial law, dietary & sabbath. Nothing about mixing pagan ways with a watered down gospel message. The misuse of that passage helps keep more people in the pews, which means more tithes and offerings. It is a business strategy; not biblical doctrine. In regards to ‘Christian’ rock it seems more appropriate to file it under 2 Timothy 2:22 instead:

“Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.”

The fact that so many people make such a big deal over worldly music suggests that it holds dominion over them, and the music itself is designed to do just that. We’ve all heard it before ‘I can’t get this song out of my head even though I hate it’. Think about that for a minute.

And the musicians themselves with their live shows, lifting themselves up on a stage and bringing the focus on them and the music rather than Christ, they increase while He decreases, then you have the smoke machines and light shows and all that influenced by the demonic inspired secular rock musicians..it’s all pride and vanity. It isn’t ‘worship’. Not of Christ anyway, but the performers. And it is a billion dollar industry. That isn’t what Christ came to establish until His return.

With all due respect I mean no offense partner but how much discernment do you really have on this issue as you claim? The term ‘rock & roll’ itself is a slang term for fornication in the back of a car, coined by a radio DJ. And all the ‘Christian’ musicians they all use the same masonic/occult symbolism on their album covers, clothes, etc. The lyrics are a watered down ‘Christian’ message at best. Many times not even doctrinally sound. And let’s not kid ourselves, people listen to it for the instrumentation and production techniques, it’s the first thing they notice. How many people would listen to ‘Christian’ contemporary music acapella style no music? It is the pagan inspired instrumentation and production that brings in listeners, the aspects which appeal to the flesh. It’s the truth.

One thing I notice is how offended many people get over things like worldly music, the pagan holidays of Easter & Christmas, things like that. Most professing Christians fight harder for those things than they do Christ. It’s true. I’ve seen it many times which brings suggests such things cannot be good.

In reading over your nicely articulated but lengthy post, I see you've made one or two useful points when referring to your own interpretation of Romans 14 and how you think that interpretation applies to the topic of "rock music," whether Secular or Christian. I think you intend to sincerely express your view about this topic and I can appreciate the viewpoint you're wanting to extend here.

Regarding your inquiry about whether I'm familiar with the history and nature of rock music, I can confirm that I am. In fact, I've been aware of much of the information that has been shared here, and I've been contemplating this issue since around 1986 when I first began re-evaluating the music I was listening to, encompassing various genres. At that time, after reading the New Testament in its entirety, one of the books I delved into was Jeff Godwin's book, "The Devil's Disciples," which, while useful, was somewhat polemical and lacked scholarly depth. Nonetheless, it offered some eye-opening insights, particularly about secular Heavy Metal music. I recall references to Aleister Crowley within his critique. Additionally, I was exposed to extensive preaching on this topic during one summer at Bible Camp.

Much time has passed since then, affording me the opportunity to study, contemplate, and pray over my own perspective on the role of music in my life. In summary, my current conclusions align more or less with those shared by three or four others in this discussion. While I find some resonance in a few of your points, I don't entirely agree with your interpretation and application of Romans 14. However, I acknowledge and respect that differing interpretations among Christians are natural when engaging with biblical texts.

Nevertheless, I have some reservations about your post, primarily stemming from what appears to be a lack of thorough research and consideration of the various contexts—personal, social, psychological, historical, cultural, spiritual, and biblical—pertaining to a musician like Kerry Livgren. It seems that you may not have fully explored the necessary contexts required to provide a valid critique or judgment about him. Consequently, I find it challenging to fully appreciate the strength of your interpretive convictions concerning points about "rock music" or our Christian interaction with it.

Thus, while I definitely agree with you that we all need to be highly discerning and selective in how we engage musical media, of whatever style, really, whether it's secular music or that which identifies itself as "Christian," I can't agree with you that you've demonstrated a completely cohesive or well-balanced analysis in your post. I'd suggest you offer a little more grace up front when addressing a topic that includes or focuses upon someone like Kerry Livgren. And even with Ronnie James Dio, one needs to vet out his intentions and the deeper meanings he says he wanted to convey, and we need to do this in order to be fair to him as a human being, and even if, in the end, we might not see him in glory (although, as with most people, I hope we do.)

With that, I thank you for your concern and the time you took to write what you feel is important on these matters.

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

In reading over your nicely articulated but lengthy post, I see you've made one or two useful points when referring to your own interpretation of Romans 14 and how you think that interpretation applies to the topic of "rock music," whether Secular or Christian. I think you intend to sincerely express your view about this topic and I can appreciate the viewpoint you're wanting to extend here.

Regarding your inquiry about whether I'm familiar with the history and nature of rock music, I can confirm that I am. In fact, I've been aware of much of the information that has been shared here, and I've been contemplating this issue since around 1986 when I first began re-evaluating the music I was listening to, encompassing various genres. At that time, after reading the New Testament in its entirety, one of the books I delved into was Jeff Godwin's book, "The Devil's Disciples," which, while useful, was somewhat polemical and lacked scholarly depth. Nonetheless, it offered some eye-opening insights, particularly about secular Heavy Metal music. I recall references to Aleister Crowley within his critique. Additionally, I was exposed to extensive preaching on this topic during several summers at Bible Camp.

Much time has passed since then, affording me the opportunity to study, contemplate, and pray over my own perspective on the role of music in my life. In summary, my current conclusions align more or less with those shared by three or four others in this discussion. While I find some resonance in a few of your points, I don't entirely agree with your interpretation and application of Romans 14. However, I acknowledge and respect that differing interpretations among Christians are natural when engaging with biblical texts.

Nevertheless, I have some reservations about your post, primarily stemming from what appears to be a lack of thorough research and consideration of the various contexts—personal, social, psychological, historical, cultural, spiritual, and biblical—pertaining to a musician like Kerry Livgren. It seems that you may not have fully explored the necessary contexts required to provide a valid critique or judgment about him. Consequently, I find it challenging to fully appreciate the strength of your interpretive convictions concerning points about "rock music" or our Christian interaction with it.

Thus, while I definitely agree with you that we all need to be highly discerning and selective in how we engage musical media, of whatever style, really, whether it's secular music or that which identifies itself as "Christian," I can't agree with you that you've demonstrated a completely cohesive or well-balanced analysis in your post. I'd suggest you offer a little more grace up front when addressing a topic that includes or focuses upon someone like Kerry Livgren. And even with Ronnie James Dio, one needs to vet out his intentions and the deeper meanings he says he wanted to convey, and we need to do this in order to be fair to him as a human being, and even if, in the end, we might not see him in glory (although, as with most people, I hope we do.)

With that, I thank you for your concern and the time you took to write what you feel is important on these matters.

Well tbh I never heard of this person, ‘Kerry Livgren’ before..my last post wasn’t in regards to him or any one person in particular. It wasn’t meant to be against him. As for ‘personal, social, historical, psychological, cultural’ matters and other things of that nature..those are worldly, carnal elements. Consideration of such things are how some factions of the ‘church’ so-called have come to embrace unbiblical things such as non-heterosexual ‘marriage’ (there’s no such thing), or transsexualism (no such thing). This is where consideration of carnal elements that war against God brings us, the Church (so-called) today is in a sorry, sorry state. Leave the things of the world out in the world, no need to bring them into the Church is my opinion anyway. And my intent isn’t to impose my ways on anyone I am just saying what I believe God desires me to.

As for Romans 14 admittedly I have not studied it in depth but all I can say is that what I am seeing referenced in there is only in regard to Old Testament laws, things that are actually mentioned within the scriptures. There is nothing referenced in that passage that could be equated to blurring the lines between the Church and the world, which ‘Christian’ rock music does indeed. And as I mentioned, nobody ever wants to talk about the stumblingblock part of that passage, Romans 14:13. The truth is, before converting, many people’s lives revolved around such music as rock or rap which are now 2 of the most popular forms of ‘christian’ music now..and when they hear that familiar sound, it begins to flood their mind with all the ‘good times’ and sin-filled memories that they had while partying, drinking, drugging up, fornicating, and raising hell to that music. It can definitely lead to temptation and perhaps a fall.

I’ve also seen a sort of attitude among the ‘stronger brothers’..came across this person who makes his living selling occult-themed fantasy writing and also reading it as a hobby. Seemed like a very angry person, who said ‘the weaker believers shouldn’t have any say in what I can and can’t enjoy or do for fun’. But where in the scriptures is anything about having fun even mentioned? Not that I believe we are called to live like monks either. But it was easy to see where that dude’s priorities lie. Same for many in the modern religious system. These people become angry when their fun time activities are questioned, while at the same time they pay a lot of money each year for TV subscriptions full of content that uses their Savior’s name as a cuss word and blaspheme Him to no end; seems they have little to no problem with that. Even financially support it. They will argue passionately about pagan holidays and masonic occult or ancient fertility ritual oriented pro sports games (that’s a whole other story, most people HAVE NO IDEA what they are really watching when they view a ballgame or where they all really originated from, nothing new under the sun) but these same folks do little to nothing to contend for the faith.

Another thing is, the way Romans 14 is applied in much of the modern Church world really doesn’t make much sense to me. As far as worldly things like Rock music, pro sports, attire, etc. It suggests the ‘weaker’ brother is the one who is willing to come up out of the world, flee youthful lusts (2 Timothy 2:22), be transformed by the renewal of his mind, (Romans 12:2), and forsake the fallen secular and pagan culture and what it holds dear. Meanwhile the ‘stronger’ brother is the one who still embraces youthful lusts and indulges in worldly things. Makes no sense. Maybe I am missing something, who knows. Like I say I have not had an in-depth study on that passage but one thing I know is that the popular teachings of the modern religious system tend to be unbiblical. Such as the famous passage Matthew 5:17-19 for one example..

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Always see it claimed that it means we are to keep the law by some..which consists of over 600 items (though they always take the liberty of picking and choosing which laws still apply). Or some will claim Jesus was ‘speaking in hyperbole’ or something to that extent, and other false teachings. But the truth is much more simple than that, what Jesus meant by ‘these least commandments’ had nothing to do with the OT law, all 600+ or the 10 commandments, He wasn’t speaking in hyperbole either as I so often see claimed. ‘These least commandments’ refers to all the commandments He gives in the proceeding verses from the remainder of Chapter 5, through Chapter 6, all the way through toward the end of Chapter 7 (don’t be angry with your brother without cause, agree with adversaries quickly, avoid looking at women with lust, let your communication be yes & no, and so-on) but simple passages like that are so often taught incorrect so I don’t really buy into how Romans 14 is commonly taught in the modern religious system. But I am getting off track.

Then again, the teaching of Romans 14 as we know it today was made popular by Martin Luther, a man who wanted to throw multiple books out of the scriptures and called for Jews to be baptized by being tossed off a bridge into a river with a millstone around their neck. His writings were embraced by the Third Reich (friend of the world = enemy of God, James 4:4). Hey, on that note, no surprise, the Book of James was one he wanted removed from canon. I avoid his teachings like I would avoid AIDS. Including his teachings on Romans 14, which adds in worldly things while the passage only refers to OT law.

On that note, speaking of AIDS, one of the founding fathers of ‘Christian’ rock so-called was a homosexual adulterer, occultist, and drug user who was into mysticism named Lonnie Frisbee, who succumbed to the disease. Now I do not know anything about the man you mention, Kerry Livgren. No comment there. But as for Lonnie Frisbee, well all I can say is that I found his ‘conversion’ story which entirely lacked repentance to be bogus. And his fruits; well, not good. Sure we all struggle, but what sort of ‘Jesus’ was the man preaching when he was having sex with other dudes cheating on his wife and doing drugs the night before? Or is it a matter of conscience like the Lutheran teaching of Romans 14 implies as far as many questionable or flat out sinful things? Was Lonnie just a ‘stronger’ brother, and I as someone who is creeped out with his antics the weaker?

Now on the other hand, I see these ‘ministries’ out there, that focus solely on demonizing rock rap whatever music and all that does is turn focus away from Christ and on to these secular and pagan musicians. Meanwhile they use their ‘ministry’ which rarely mentions Christ, to make a nice cozy living. That’s the other side of the road, another ditch imo. On that note, now, the ‘Christian’ rockers and rappers and all that..how many of them would be willing to give out their ‘gospel’ music for free? The ones in the billion dollar industry all make good money doing what they do and based on what I have heard their ‘gospel’ message is pretty watered down. We also know they all take pride in their music..they definitely do not look humble and meek on stage or on their album covers (generally speaking). It is selling people an unbiblical version of Jesus, a ‘let’s make God one of us’ version. Not the guy you mention, I am saying in general. This post is getting long but wanted to add, having a look at the songs and music videos of contemporary Christian music on YouTube, the commenters are virtually all giving all the glory to the performers, rather than Christ. He must increase, man must decrease. (John 3:30). CCM has that backwards. They go on about how great the sound and the beat and the vocals and the melody and production techniques and all that is in the social media comments. Worship music, sure..but from what I see it ain’t Jesus being worshipped.

As for the author you mentioned not being educated, well, what’s the difference between God and a Scholar? God doesn’t think He’s a Scholar LOL.

“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”
—1 Corinthians 1:26-27

“Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.”
—1 Corinthians 3:18

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
—Colossians 2:8

 

[Joseph G]

Boy does this post hit close to home...

I was a major fan of Kansas back in the day - before I was a believer. Cerebral rock that appealed to my philosophical bent. And not your standard three-chord fare like the rest of my rock records - complex orchestral rock. I learned all I could about Kerry Livgren because I was in awe of his plethora of talents: lyricist, musical composer, accomplished guitarist and keyboardist. I also admired the lead singer, Steve Walsh.

These were the days before the internet so I had no clue what world-view shaped his lyrics. And the fanzines weren't that impressed with Kansas so no help there.

Well a few albums down the road and suddenly Steve Walsh quit. I couldn't find out why. They bring in this new guy John Elefante. Not as good as Steve in my estimation, but good enough. And it was certainly up to Kansas' quality standards. So I was a happy camper.

Now this is something crucial to my tale and to the OP of this thread. I couldn't tell any difference between the lyrical inspiration from the 'old Kansas' to the 'new Kansas'. I had no idea that Kerry had become a Christian or that the new lyrics had any discernable difference from the old lyrics.

Fast forward to 1988 and I become a born-again believer myself. One of the first things the Spirit lead me to do, after quitting drinking and smoking, was to toss out all my rock, and even pop, records. I thought, well can't I thumb through the lyrics and separate the 'harmless' ones from the obviously 'bad'? Nope - it's all gotta go. Man was that tough to do. But I did it.

Started listening to a contemporary Christian music station and from that started building a new collection of Christian pop albums.

A year or so goes by and I start getting an itch again for good old rock and roll. Found a book called something like 'Can Christians Listen To Rock?' Don't remember much of their argument either way, but in the back was an extensive chart of secular rock bands and their Christian equivalent. Great! I thumbed down the list and lo! Kansas Christian equivalent: Kerry Livgen/A.D. Wow! Kerry was a Christian and still producing music! Just like John Schlitt formerly of Head East now of Petra, and Mark Farner formerly of Grand Funk.

So I lapped up every A.D./Kerry Livgen solo CD I could find and sure enough the lyrics sounded pretty Christian-themed to me. I could rock in safety.

Now came the internet and I discovered Kerry's autobiography, the aforementioned 'Seeds Of Change'. I finally learned about his spiritual journey from philosophy to mysticism to that whacked-out Urantia book. And he included his resultant lyrics inspired by each step. Duh! I had no idea.

Then the real revelation, he became a Christian while still in Kansas, and detailed how the new lyrics were inspired by his faith. And I found out why Steve quit - because he refused to go along with Kerry's assertion that Kansas was now a Christian band.

Interestingly, the bass player Dave Hope became a Christian due in part to Kerry's witness, and eventually quit music altogether and became a minister.

So... I rushed out and bought the Kansas 'Christian' albums. Now having 'ears to here' I could plainly discern the Christian influence - all is well, right? Sadly... no.

I'm getting to the point, bear with me!

I was actually delighted that he brought in Dio and amazingly, Steve Walsh, to sing Christian lyrics. Maybe a seed was planted in them in the process. That's what I prayed for, anyway.

Now to the sad part. I didn't realize how compromised I had already become. If I had been sensitive to the Spirit's wisdom, I would have taken a serious appraisal of what I was listening to - and realized that nowhere in the lyrics was the name of Jesus. Or even the name of God. 'Live For The King' was fine, but for the seeker who is listening - just who was the 'King'? Same with 'Mask Of The Great Deceiver' - who exactly was the seeker being warned against?

From there I was lead back into the older Kansas albums, and then other old secular rock, and finally till the bulk of my collection was again secular. I was filling my mind with poison again - just as in my B.C. days. The dog truly returned to his vomit.

I began to fall back into other sins and became almost totally backslidden for years. Music wasn't the only factor. I had gradually quit going to church, quit reading my Bible, and only prayed when I really needed something. Started smoking again and hanging out on secular chat boards. For all intents and purposes if one looked at me they would have no inclination that I was a believer. *I* knew I still was, but due to my eyesight being darkened I failed to see how little fruit I was bearing for His Kingdom. Except for the occasional pang of guilt, I was content to wallow in the pig mire of the far country. The enemy is subtle and patient - just one little compromise at a time got me there. What a sucker!

Well thankfully God, in His infinite grace and mercy, will let His children get away with that for just so long. Like the prodigal son, I finally came to my senses and started seeking Him again. Looking back, of course, He was drawing me back all along. He re-established my identity, taught me how to have daily fellowship, and cleaned me up.

And one of the first things to go? Once again, all the old secular music AND the Christian rock. And for two years now fellowship with Him is sweet without its influence competing for my mind. I learned through years of pain how destructive it was to tolerate idols in your life.

Some observations from my experience... First off, far be it from me to tell another believer what is safe to listen to. But for me personally, now that it's gone, I can NEVER go back. What seemed like safe Christian rock was for me a stepping stone back to worldly music - by virtue of being essentially no different - in that it fails to lead one to the Name Above All Names. When I listen to music at all - I listen to good 'ole praise music. I'm even losing my taste for overbearing electric guitar and drums - just doesn't feel worshipful to me anymore.

There's more good news to report. Due to this thread topic, I got curious about what Kerry was up to lately. I found that one of his latest works is a symphonic Contata called 'The Resurrection Of Lazuras'. Interestingly, the cast of singers includes David Pack, John Elefante, Greg X. Voltz and even good 'ole Steve Walsh (appearing as a Pharisee of all things - hmmm... I HAVE been praying for him...).

Checked out the lyrics and Jesus is more than abundantly glorified! Here they are if anyone's curious:

Lyrics

 

[LW97Nils]

Afraid you are right. Thankfully, I am more into southern gospel.

 

[LW97Nils]

I’ve also seen a sort of attitude among the ‘stronger brothers’..came across this person who makes his living selling occult-themed fantasy writing and also reading it as a hobby. Seemed like a very angry person, who said ‘the weaker believers shouldn’t have any say in what I can and can’t enjoy or do for fun’. But where in the scriptures is anything about having fun even mentioned?

If he thinks there is no issue with the glorification of occultism and even making money out of it, then he is the weaker brother. The stronger brother strives to please God.

 

[LW97Nils]

In Romans 14 only food, drink, and observance of days is mentioned..OT ceremonial law, dietary & sabbath. Nothing about mixing pagan ways with a watered down gospel message. The misuse of that passage helps keep more people in the pews, which means more tithes and offerings. It is a business strategy; not biblical doctrine. In regards to ‘Christian’ rock it seems more appropriate to file it under 2 Timothy 2:22 instead:

“Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.”

The fact that so many people make such a big deal over worldly music suggests that it holds dominion over them, and the music itself is designed to do just that. We’ve all heard it before ‘I can’t get this song out of my head even though I hate it’. Think about that for a minute.

Absolutely. What I would disagree is whether all types of rock are the same. Rock music is satanic, but I do not see an issue with soft rock, depending on the lyrics. I think there are areas that must be avoided obviously (hard rock as an example), while others I would not judge over.

Music is a language. As such, it can be used for good, bad, and everything in between. There is plenty of room for grey area in music as it primarily communicates feelings and abstract concepts, along with inherent mathematical structures.

A musician's abilities come from God, regardless of whether they are Christian or not. Satan may have musical ability, but it's much like his linguistic ability. He would not be able to make music if God did not first create in him the ability to make music. Angels share this ability and, more importantly, God created music itself.

The way I see it, a Christian who makes rock music is no more inherently under Satan's influence than a Christian who uses language. Regardless of whether we're talking about heavy metal or classical. Both of which, incidentally, share a lot in common.

Indeed, there is a genre called neoclassical metal, this one however is different from the regular hard rock. There is a massive difference between a Stryper song and an electric guitar version of a Bach composition.

And one of the first things to go? Once again, all the old secular music AND the Christian rock. And for two years now fellowship with Him is sweet without its influence competing for my mind. I learned through years of pain how destructive it was to tolerate idols in your life.

Some observations from my experience... First off, far be it from me to tell another believer what is safe to listen to. But for me personally, now that it's gone, I can NEVER go back. What seemed like safe Christian rock was for me a stepping stone back to worldly music - by virtue of being essentially no different - in that it fails to lead one to the Name Above All Names. When I listen to music at all - I listen to good 'ole praise music. I'm even losing my taste for overbearing electric guitar and drums - just doesn't feel worshipful to me anymore.

Electric guitar can be used for classical music too. Such I would love. What I would beg to differ on whether there is no difference between wordly and secular music. I am more of a southern gospel dude but I have no issues with something more modern as long as it ain't too emotional and feminine like the vast majority of rock music is.

One thing I notice is how offended many people get over things like worldly music, the pagan holidays of Easter & Christmas, things like that. Most professing Christians fight harder for those things than they do Christ. It’s true. I’ve seen it many times which brings suggests such things cannot be good.

I do feel that we shouldn't celebrate it because it was first pagan, then they mixed in Jesus with a pagan celebration, however, there are weaker brothers and sisters who celebrate it for their own purposes, who I wouldn't say those are fake, but weak. Plenty of false Christians to go around.

On the origins of rock music here is an informative article. The origin was much sooner than the 70s, 80s.

Rock | Definition, History, Artists, Songs, & Facts | Britannica

Rock is a form of popular music that emerged in the 1950s and that by the end of the 20th century was the world’s dominant form of popular music. It originated in the United States and spread to other English-speaking countries and across Europe in the 1960s.

www.britannica.com

As for the father of Christian rock, Larry Norman is considered to be the one.

How Did Larry Norman Become the Father of Christian Rock?

Larry Norman invented what we now call Christian rock, and therefore may be the father of Contemporary Christian Music. So why did he have such as hard time fitting into the genre he created?

www.christianity.com

I don't think Norman had any good fruit. Here's a way better message for his current supporters!

 

[LW97Nils]