• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Omniscience under the microscope

Vigilante

Cherry 7-Up is still the best
Oct 19, 2006
469
29
In limbo
✟23,372.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
This questioning of mine is going to fall under some assumptions of the broader Christian worldview, but I trust my atheist friends here will indulge me by playing Santa's Advocate, and will diligently attack my puzzle. :)


Merriam-Webster offers two definitions for "omniscient":

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Simple enough. I'm treating "understanding," "insight," "knowledge," and "awareness" as essentially synonymous, at least in this case. The discrepancy between the two definitions, then, seems to hinge on "infinite" vs. "complete," and that's where my puzzle begins.

Noted Christian philosopher Dallas Willard writes in his essay Language, Being, God, and the Three Stages of Theistic Evidence:

"Most importantly for present interests, since the series of causes for any given state is completed, it not only exhibits a rigorous structure as indicated, but that structure also has a first term. That is, there is in it at least one "cause," one state of being, which does not derive its existence from something else. It is self-existent.

"If this were not so, Voyager's passing Triton, or any other physical event or state, could not be realized, since that would require the actual completion of an infinite, i.e. incompletable, series of events. In simplest terms, its causes would never 'get to' it." - http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=42

Now anyone who's familiar with this line of reasoning knows that he's referring to the Kalam Cosmological Argument, but I don't want to discuss anything about that at the moment. Rather, I'm struck by one peculiar thing...

"[...] would require the actual completion of an infinite, i.e. incompletable, series of events."

That's interesting. According to the Christian worldview, humanity will eventually be assimilated into heaven or hell (or a movement for some from the latter to the former after a 'purification,' depending on your theology), and in those places we will exist everlasting through an everlasting succession of paradisaical events.

But wait. This everlasting succession of events represents, following Willard's terminology, "an infinite, i.e. incompletable" series. If we contrast this with the above definitions of "omniscient" we find a fork with two roads:

1. "Omniscience," for God, representsthe incompletable knowledge of a series of incompletable events.

2. "Omniscience," for God, represents a complete knowledge of an incompletable series of events. But one cannot "know everything" if "an everything to know" doesn't exist. We cannot, in this case, be mumbling this or that about finitude.

Defining God's "omniscience" as "God's incompletable knowledge" doesn't sound much like the "omniscience" we're used to hearing or reading about (you know, the kind that smells of absolutism). Neither does the other option, for that matter. If "incompletability" characterizes God's knowledge, is it logically possible that he does not know what I'm doing right now? Or is my current event swept up in the hurricane of incompletability? How exactly are we supposed to think about "incompletable"?

For the record, I'm perfectly comfortable with a God who isn't omniscient--whatever that means.
 

Matthew_18:14

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2008
571
37
Indiana
✟23,423.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Vigilante,

I'll take a stab at this. I'm referring back to a book I read (part of at least) by C.S. Lewis called "Mere Christianity" (maybe you've read this already). In this he describes how God can be Omniscient and everywhere in a way that I never thought of.

His explanation started by explaining that God is like the author of a book, but on a much grander scale. An author knows all of the characters, knows all of the timelines, and knows all of the actions, but does not reside in the world he has created. Unlike a book God gave us free will, so that we can decide our own fates, but he sees and knows everything we do. I guess the way I like to explain it is that God is in another dimension, one that is incomprehensible by us. If God is inifinite then there is no way for our finite minds to comprehend God completely. All we've got to go by are the teachings of the Bible (or numerous other religious books). Through the grace of God I've come to believe that Jesus is the son of God and our redeemer, so I've choosen the Bible.

Please let me know if this makes any sense, or if there is another point you'd like to make, that I missed.

Aaron
 
Upvote 0

TeddyKGB

A dude playin' a dude disgused as another dude
Jul 18, 2005
6,495
455
48
Deep underground
✟9,013.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
His explanation started by explaining that God is like the author of a book, but on a much grander scale. An author knows all of the characters, knows all of the timelines, and knows all of the actions, but does not reside in the world he has created. Unlike a book God gave us free will, so that we can decide our own fates, but he sees and knows everything we do. I guess the way I like to explain it is that God is in another dimension, one that is incomprehensible by us. If God is inifinite then there is no way for our finite minds to comprehend God completely. All we've got to go by are the teachings of the Bible (or numerous other religious books). Through the grace of God I've come to believe that Jesus is the son of God and our redeemer, so I've choosen the Bible.
"Free will" is a considerable ontological nightmare, however. Even with modern thinking bordering on the obsessive, nearly the only thing the various factions - libertarians, hard determinists, and points in-between - mutually acknowledge is that, in principle, "free will" would be violated by direct intervention from an entity capable of manipulating others' thoughts. Whatever else "free will" entails or excludes is still an enigma.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew_18:14

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2008
571
37
Indiana
✟23,423.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"Free will" is a considerable ontological nightmare, however. Even with modern thinking bordering on the obsessive, nearly the only thing the various factions - libertarians, hard determinists, and points in-between - mutually acknowledge is that, in principle, "free will" would be violated by direct intervention from an entity capable of manipulating others' thoughts. Whatever else "free will" entails or excludes is still an enigma.

TeddyKGB,

Lets, for arguments sake, say there is no God. Based on what you are saying we still would not have "free will" because another human being could manipulate us by giving us a suggestion.

Let me explain. I view God as being able to tell us something, but we are free to choose whether to do what is asked, or to follow our own path. God can intervene by e.g. performing miracles, but this does not exclude "free will". Just because someone helps you do something does not mean that you were not free to choose.

Aaron
 
Upvote 0

TeddyKGB

A dude playin' a dude disgused as another dude
Jul 18, 2005
6,495
455
48
Deep underground
✟9,013.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Lets, for arguments sake, say there is no God. Based on what you are saying we still would not have "free will" because another human being could manipulate us by giving us a suggestion.
By "direct intervention" I meant to indicate the type of manipulation many would automatically refer to as "supernatural." If that strikes you as overly vague, well, that's simply the nature of that particular beast.
Let me explain. I view God as being able to tell us something, but we are free to choose whether to do what is asked, or to follow our own path. God can intervene by e.g. performing miracles, but this does not exclude "free will". Just because someone helps you do something does not mean that you were not free to choose.
When I am "free to choose," from what am I free?
 
Upvote 0

Matthew_18:14

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2008
571
37
Indiana
✟23,423.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
When I am "free to choose," from what am I free?

TeddyKGB,

Free from someone, or somethings (e.g. god) intervention. Even if someone puts a gun to my head I am free to choose whether I do what they ask, or suffer the consequences. This is what I mean from "free to choose".

Aaron
 
Upvote 0

TeddyKGB

A dude playin' a dude disgused as another dude
Jul 18, 2005
6,495
455
48
Deep underground
✟9,013.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Free from someone, or somethings (e.g. god) intervention. Even if someone puts a gun to my head I am free to choose whether I do what they ask, or suffer the consequences. This is what I mean from "free to choose".
What sorts of actions would constitute free will violations if threats of lethal cranial penetration do not?
 
Upvote 0

Matthew_18:14

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2008
571
37
Indiana
✟23,423.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What sorts of actions would constitute free will violations if threats of lethal cranial penetration do not?

TeddyKGB,

I'm not sure if you are joking, or not. If not, then I'd have to say I'm still free to choose. I can choose to die, or I can choose to do whatever is asked of me. Not that this is a situation that I would ever want to be in, but I'm still free to decide. There are many instances where people have chosen to die rather than submit to the demands of someone else. Many of the saints accepted death rather than denying Christ. This is just one type of example. I'm sure that many other people in history have done the same thing for different reasons.

Aaron
 
Upvote 0

plmarquette

Veteran
Oct 5, 2004
3,254
192
74
Auburn , IL.
✟4,379.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Republican
born again...part of God's "mystical body"...can you hide your arm from your body? close your eyes, you still know where the parts are all at....ps 139

God knows where we are at, but can oly intervene if we ask him, if we are walking in faith and love.....martyrs...schisms, wars....choices of men good and evil...

Some things are without explaination ...dt 29.29 a need to know basis....9.11; planes, crashes....why? many men, evil plans, others not paying attention...

evil does not invalidate a supreme being....perhaps , confirms one...if there is a devil, than so to a God...ying and yang....balance...

it is not what others believe that should motivate us, but what God says and we believe...
 
Upvote 0

TeddyKGB

A dude playin' a dude disgused as another dude
Jul 18, 2005
6,495
455
48
Deep underground
✟9,013.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Missed this somehow.

I'm not sure if you are joking, or not. If not, then I'd have to say I'm still free to choose. I can choose to die, or I can choose to do whatever is asked of me. Not that this is a situation that I would ever want to be in, but I'm still free to decide. There are many instances where people have chosen to die rather than submit to the demands of someone else. Many of the saints accepted death rather than denying Christ. This is just one type of example. I'm sure that many other people in history have done the same thing for different reasons.
Um, great. So, pursuant to my question, can you give an example of an action that would violate free will? You say "god" is an example, but you do not describe what god would need to do in order to violate free will.
 
Upvote 0

Vigilante

Cherry 7-Up is still the best
Oct 19, 2006
469
29
In limbo
✟23,372.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Vigilante,

I'll take a stab at this. [...]

His explanation started by explaining that God is like the author of a book [...] and knows all of the actions [...].

Please let me know if this makes any sense, or if there is another point you'd like to make, that I missed.

Aaron

Thanks for your reply! Actually, your response deals with what I was trying to get at, but probably not in the way you anticipated: when Lewis refers to "all" of the actions, he must, by definition, be referring to a distinctly finite amount of them (for example, one cannot meaningfully claim that he or she will ever be able to say aloud, no matter how much time we give them, "all" numbers).

Christians claim that time will never complete itself. If this is so, and if Christians continue to act throughout this temporally-limitless existence (on the new earth, or wherever), we cannot also claim that there will be a finite amount of actions. And that is what precludes us (and Lewis) from referring to "all" actions, or that God knows "all" things, simply because there is, in this case, no "all" to be known (or acted out).

My original post was an attempt to grapple with how one is "supposed" to think of God's knowledge when we cannot meaningfully apply words like "all" or "every" to it. If it is incompletability that characterizes our never-ending succession of events, and we claim that God has knowledge of these events, I ask, How much knowledge of this incompletable series does he have, without recourse to answers that require finiteness, such as, "Well, all of them."

Or maybe I'm framing the question incorrectly. =\
 
Upvote 0