Okay... My wife and I are attending and even met

[JimfromOhio]

with the Pastor personally. I truly found out that I do agree with Lutheran doctrines more than I knew. I came from Reformed theology and always had some issues with TULIP in the concept of "election". This is a mystery that is incomprehensible to human reason which one reason I have issue with Calvinism. God is sovereign God and we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I am happy that Calvinism and Lutheranism agrees that man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God’s grace in conversion.

I love it when I heard that Lutherans affirms with Scripture, that those who are damned are damned not by God's "choice" but on account of their own human sin and rebellion and unbelief.

My only question regarding atonement is this: How could unforgiven (unsaved) sinners receive atonement? My belief is that Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. Christ's atonement provided us with a means to obtain a resurrection to eternal life with no more sickness, death, or suffering. Looking at Galatians 5:24: "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” The old self is everything we were in Adam. Our sin was crucified with Christ. As believers we are so united with Christ that when He died, we died. When Jesus died He was paying the penalty for our sins. The work of redemption was done. He did all that the law required and perfectly accomplished all that the Father had given Him to do. He made full atonement for sins–everything was done; nothing was left. He came into this world "to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26) and He did just that. He bore our sins in His own body, and dealt Satan a blow to the head (Gen. 3:15).

I am confused with Lutheran's teaching with this statement: Lutherans believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time--even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ.

Even though I agree with the first part: "Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits."

This is an area I will be studying and try to understand.

Anyway, we have started attending membership classes to learn more about Lutheranism. They gave us a copy of Luther's Short Catechism

We ordered and received a copy of Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions-A Readers Edition of the Book of Concord.

My wife and I are studying this together. We are both excited.

 

[Studeclunker]

I'm not sure that I'm up to giving a full answer to your question. Mainly because I'm unsure of your question. To wit:

I am confused with Lutheran's teaching with this statement: Lutherans believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time--even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ.

Does your confusion have to do with the Calvinist viewpoint of the Doctrine of Election?

If so, the answer is that God's will is that no-one would perish, not even one. However, we have the ability to tell Him, as it were, to bugger off. Hence we Damn ourselves. God doesn't Damn us, we do. The conundrum is in how this all takes place. See, the Holy Spirit awakens in us that latent part that longs for fellowship with God. This isn't something we really seem to have a part in. It's there... yet our fallen nature warps, bends, and corupts it into other, more self-oriented, directions. Things like Self Realization Fellowship work in this direction. How does all of this relate to the Doctrine of Election? Well, God sees all of time from it's beginning to it's ending, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end," He has told us. Therefore He just knows who will say yea and who will say nay. Hence, the free gift part of it. If there was any price, on our part, it would be impossible.

Jesus did it all,
All to him I owe,
Sin was like a Crimson Stain...
He washed it white as snow!​

Hence, though they reject the free gift of salvation, it is offered to the unbeliever. If they reject it and refuse the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, they have chosen separation from God, to wit: damnation. We choose to be Damned. God chooses to Save us.

The beauty of the Adamic curse; is that though through one man came death, therefore through one man (God in human flesh) Jesus the Christ, life could be restored to us.

What greater gift of love has mankind ever recieved?

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not sure that I'm up to giving a full answer to your question. Mainly because I'm unsure of your question. To wit:



Does your confusion have to do with the Calvinist viewpoint of the Doctrine of Election?

If so, the answer is that God's will is that no-one would perish, not even one. However, we have the ability to tell Him, as it were, to bugger off. Hence we Damn ourselves. God doesn't Damn us, we do. The conundrum is in how this all takes place. See, the Holy Spirit awakens in us that latent part that longs for fellowship with God. This isn't something we really seem to have a part in. It's there... yet our fallen nature warps, bends, and corupts it into other, more self-oriented, directions. Things like Self Realization Fellowship work in this direction. How does all of this relate to the Doctrine of Election? Well, God sees all of time from it's beginning to it's ending, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end," He has told us. Therefore He just knows who will say yea and who will say nay. Hence, the free gift part of it. If there was any price, on our part, it would be impossible.



Hence, though they reject the free gift of salvation, it is offered to the unbeliever. If they reject it and refuse the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, they have chosen separation from God, to wit: damnation. We choose to be Damned. God chooses to Save us.

The beauty of the Adamic curse; is that though through one man came death, therefore through one man (God in human flesh) Jesus the Christ, life could be restored to us.

What greater gift of love has mankind ever recieved?

I am not speaking of election but rather the specific of atonement. If Christ died for all in atonement, what does it mean those who got the atonement didn't really get their atonement when their lives ended?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am not speaking of election but rather the specific of atonement. If Christ died for all in atonement, what does it mean those who got the atonement didn't really get their atonement when their lives ended?

Jim, if I don't get this quite right, I'm sure someone will correct me! ...but here goes...

• God created us all, therefore as His children, we are His.
• The atonement that God has given us through His Son Jesus is freely given through God's Grace, just as parental love is given to our children without conditions.
• Just as we can reject the love given to us by our parents, we can reject this atonement.
• When one rejects this atonement, one can not benefit from it, even though, it is still there and still freely offered.
• The story of the prodigal son illustrates this. Even though we can walk away from God and squander what He has given us, undeserving though we are, the gift of atonement remains there for us through repentance.

God dose not separate us from Himself, rather through our free will, we can separate ourselves from God eternally.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, if I don't get this quite right, I'm sure someone will correct me! ...but here goes...

• God created us all, therefore as His children, we are His.
• The atonement that God has given us through His Son Jesus is freely given through God's Grace, just as parental love is given to our children without conditions.
• Just as we can reject the love given to us by our parents, we can reject this atonement.
• When one rejects this atonement, one can not benefit from it, even though, it is still there and still freely offered.
• The story of the prodigal son illustrates this. Even though we can walk away from God and squander what He has given us, undeserving though we are, the gift of atonement remains there for us through repentance.

God dose not separate us from Himself, rather through our free will, we can separate ourselves from God eternally.

Thanks for explaining and that makes sense. The gospel invites all to come but many who are unwilling to come. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all.

This basically explains: Soli Deo gloria: All glory is due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action—not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

The atonement is the work of God from beginning to end. God alone provides the means of salvation through the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ; through the call of God for all to repent and don't reject; and through the God-given restoration.

Salvation by grace alone and that the atonement both reconciliation and restoration. Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

In terms of "When one rejects this atonement, one can not benefit from it, even though, it is still there and still freely offered." God’s love extends to the whole world. It covers all humanity but the actual atonement is for whoever did not reject Holy Spirit's conviction and repented. (That's where I have struggled with even though the atonement is offered to all).

 

[Archaenfel]

Ah, another who has issues with Calvinism. Such issues are why I am Remonstrant.

I can't post links yet, but if you Google "Five Articles of Remonstrance Wiki" you should find a good link explaining the core beliefs of the Remonstrants, otherwise known as Arminianism.

 

[filosofer]

Ah, another who has issues with Calvinism. Such issues are why I am Remonstrant.

I can't post links yet, but if you Google "Five Articles of Remonstrance Wiki" you should find a good link explaining the core beliefs of the Remonstrants, otherwise known as Arminianism.

But keep in mind that Lutherans are neither Calvinist nor Arminian in theology. Both frame the question wrongly, and so cannot produce the Biblical stance.

 

[JimfromOhio]

But keep in mind that Lutherans are neither Calvinist nor Arminian in theology. Both frame the question wrongly, and so cannot produce the Biblical stance.

One thing I have learned over the years relating to the "doctrine of salvation". No doctrine is more important to evangelical theology than the doctrine of justification by faith alone—the Reformation principle of sola fide. Martin Luther was used by God to develop, what theologians call "soteriology" the doctrine of salvation. He was a "soteriologist" and the truth of the matter is that the Reformation was a soeteriological reformation, that never touched the field of ecclesiology (the doctrine of the Church). Most important, this raises the whole question of the doctrine of regeneration because this is the most serious thing of all. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it. And, as it is His work, it is always a thorough work; and is always a work that will show itself. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (conviction), as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I like this quote:

"Imagine two men reading the same passage of Scripture, one a Calvinist who has been brought up on Calvinistic theology from his youth, the other reared in the Arminian tradition and thoroughly indoctrinated in Arminianism. The passage they read is Hebrews 6:4-6, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance". The impressions the Calvinist receives from these words will differ radically from those received by the Arminian, yet neither one will be conscious of adding to, subtracting from or otherwise altering the passage in any way. Each will understand the words to mean exactly what he has been taught that they mean. The meaning he sees there will appear to him so natural, so logical and right that he will wonder how anyone can see any other. (And sadly enough each will more than likely think the other a hypocrite who receives his teaching from the devil. But that is not pertinent to this particular argument.)" A.W. Tozer

 

[Till]

But keep in mind that Lutherans are neither Calvinist nor Arminian in theology. Both frame the question wrongly, and so cannot produce the Biblical stance.

What do you mean by that? How is the question framed correctly? And what actually is the question?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks for explaining and that makes sense. The gospel invites all to come but many who are unwilling to come. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all.

This basically explains: Soli Deo gloria: All glory is due to God alone, since salvation is accomplished solely through His will and action—not only the gift of the all-sufficient atonement of Jesus on the cross but also the gift of faith in that atonement, created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

The atonement is the work of God from beginning to end. God alone provides the means of salvation through the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ; through the call of God for all to repent and don't reject; and through the God-given restoration.

Salvation by grace alone and that the atonement both reconciliation and restoration. Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

In terms of "When one rejects this atonement, one can not benefit from it, even though, it is still there and still freely offered." God’s love extends to the whole world. It covers all humanity but the actual atonement is for whoever did not reject Holy Spirit's conviction and repented. (That's where I have struggled with even though the atonement is offered to all).

You've got it!

 

[DaRev]

Thanks for explaining and that makes sense. The gospel invites all to come but many who are unwilling to come. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all.

It's not an "invitation." To call it such would mean that the invitation needs to be "accepted" or we must "come". Neither is true. The Gospel is a gift given freely to all, but there are many who reject this gift. Those who receive it do so passively. Those who reject it do so actively.

 

[JimfromOhio]

It's not an "invitation." To call it such would mean that the invitation needs to be "accepted" or we must "come". Neither is true. The Gospel is a gift given freely to all, but there are many who reject this gift. Those who receive it do so passively. Those who reject it do so actively.

As we look at [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord[/FONT]?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]41] For few receive the Word and follow it; the greatest number despise the Word, and will not come to the wedding, Matt. 22, 3ff The cause for this contempt for the Word is not God's foreknowledge [or predestination], but the perverse will of man, which rejects or perverts the means and instrument of the Holy Ghost, which God offers him through the call, and resists the Holy Ghost, who wishes to be efficacious, and works through the Word, as Christ says: How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not! Matt. 23, 37. [/FONT]

 

[filosofer]

What do you mean by that? How is the question framed correctly? And what actually is the question?

If the question is incorrectly framed this way, then Calvinism and Arminianism come to the wrong conclusion:

"What is the cause that some people end up in heaven and others end up in hell?"

Calvinism answers: God chooses some for heaven and chooses others for hell.

(The problem is 1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Arminianism answers: The person chooses heaven and the person chooses hell.

(The problem is Ephesians 2:1)


=========================

The question is really:

"What are the causes for some people ending up in heaven and others ending up in hell?"

The Biblical answers are:

Heaven: God is the cause.

Hell: The person is the cause.

Note that there is not one answer but two answers to the real question.

 

[filosofer]

It's not an "invitation." To call it such would mean that the invitation needs to be "accepted" or we must "come". Neither is true. The Gospel is a gift given freely to all, but there are many who reject this gift. Those who receive it do so passively. Those who reject it do so actively.

Well, technically, the Gospel imperative "believe!" creates the faith that receives the gift. Acts 16:31

 

[joyfulthanks]

It's not an "invitation." To call it such would mean that the invitation needs to be "accepted" or we must "come". Neither is true. The Gospel is a gift given freely to all, but there are many who reject this gift. Those who receive it do so passively. Those who reject it do so actively.

How do you interpret the verse in Revelation in which Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."

I'm wondering how one opens a door passively.

Edit: Never mind - filosofer's post above answers this.

 

[filosofer]

How do you interpret the verse in Revelation in which Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."

I'm wondering how one opens a door passively.

Edit: Never mind - filosofer's post above answers this.

Well, additionally, Rev. 3:20 is spoken to those who already believe, not to unbelievers. So, believers do work with the Holy Spirit, but cannot come to faith on their.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well, additionally, Rev. 3:20 is spoken to those who already believe, not to unbelievers. So, believers do work with the Holy Spirit, but cannot come to faith on their.

I agree. Only those who already are believers. God is a sovereign God and we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction (hear) of the Holy Spirit. One of the perfect examples of the "conviction" is Jesus' knocking at the door, in Revelation 3:20, Jesus said: Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Jim,

What an exciting time for you and your wife.

Keep up with the reading. I think the overall understanding is found in looking at the Means of Grace. It is a fundamental doctrine in Lutheran soteriology. I am surprised no one has brought it up thus far.

Pick up Gerhard Forde's little book, Where God Meets Man. It's short at only 127 pages but still not a quick read. His treatment on election should be most rewarding.

Peace,
Cos

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

It's not an "invitation." To call it such would mean that the invitation needs to be "accepted" or we must "come". Neither is true. The Gospel is a gift given freely to all, but there are many who reject this gift. Those who receive it do so passively. Those who reject it do so actively.

very good wording.
It sounds like the issue of this thread is the L of TULIP- Limited Atonement. Which is what your Reformed background would have taught you as opposed to the Lutheran notion of Unlimited Atonement, which says Jesus Christ died on the cross to atone for all.
Lewis Spitz wrote a wonderful little booklet called "Our Church and Others"
he writes about the Reformed view:
Reformed Calvinistic theologians hold that the suffering and death of Jesus sufficed for the redemption of the world but that God never intended the Savior's Passion to save the whole world. They reason that if God in His infinite and transcendent sovereignty had intended to redeem all men, then all men would be compelled to come to saving faith and obtain everlasting life. Therefore Jesus, they say, redeemed only the elect. (But God says: 1 Tim. 1:15; Matt. 18:11; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:15; 2 Peter 2:1) ----Pages 67-68
On Lutheran Theology on this matter he writes:
In Christ--so the Lutheran church teaches--there is complete and universal redemption. He has atoned for all the sins of every sinner. The forgiveness which he procured for all men He offers to them in the Gospel. Faith created by the power of the Holy Spirit is the hand which receives this forgiveness. ----page 32 also relevant is his words on page 36:
Also those who are lost have been redeemed by Christ, and God earnestly desires their salvation and offers them salvation in the Gospel (2 Peter 2:1; 1 Tim 2:4).

Hope that helps. The booklet is actually a nice thing for every Lutheran to have. Again its called "Our Church and Others: Beliefs and Practices of American Churches" By Lewis Spitz, CPH, St. Louis, 1960
Similar to predestination, why all are not in faith and saved is a mystery, but we know from scriptures that Christ died for all and God desires all to repent and come to faith.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

How do you interpret the verse in Revelation in which Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."

I'm wondering how one opens a door passively.

Edit: Never mind - filosofer's post above answers this.

I would place more empohasis on "hears my voice".

How does a deadman walk out of a tomb?

"Lazarus, come forth."

"Apart from Me, you can do nothing."

Peace,

Cos