Offering up our suffering...

Wiffey · Feb 22, 2005

Can anybody give me more info on the Orthodox perspective on the redemptive quality of suffering and "offering up" suffering i.e. uniting our suffering to Christ's for the redemption of souls?

Most of what I know of this topic is from a Catholic perspective, and I'd like to know more about the Orthodox view, maybe read some Orthodox writings on the topic...any suggestions?

Jason of Wyoming · Feb 22, 2005

Gee....forgive me but that almost sounds heretical.

I'd like some clarification too!

Iacobus · Feb 22, 2005

Wiffey said:
Can anybody give me more info on the Orthodox perspective on the redemptive quality of suffering and "offering up" suffering i.e. uniting our suffering to Christ's for the redemption of souls?

Most of what I know of this topic is from a Catholic perspective, and I'd like to know more about the Orthodox view, maybe read some Orthodox writings on the topic...any suggestions?

Depending on what exactly you mean by the phrase "redemptive quality of suffering", I would say that is Orthodox. The way in which we approach the inevitable suffering we encounter has much to do with the destruction of the passions, our reliance on God, and hence our individual salvation.

The latter, however, offering up our suffering for others is, I think, peculiarly RC. I have never run across that notion in the Orthodox Church, or any patristic writings of the first millenium. I suspect that it developed as part of the doctrine of purgatory, which is foreign to us.

katherine2001 · Feb 22, 2005

You might try looking at www.oca.org. I think Fr. John Breck has some articles on suffering in his "Life in Christ" series. Just click on the "Life in Christ" button towards the middle of the home page.

Xpycoctomos · Feb 22, 2005

Details aside, I think the concept of offering up one's suffering makes complete sense in an Orthodox context. We know that the prayer of a faithful man is powerful and Effective (Ephesians bla bla versus bla bla). We also gain understanding and union to Chrsit when we accept our sufferings in Christ. Christianity is a religion of a compassionate God... One Who suffers with us. We know and grow in Christ through our victories, but most of all through our struggles. Through this, our prayers are more effective and, so are our prayers for those we wish to "offer up our suffering".

I do know some Catholics who look for opportunities to suffer so they can "offer it up" and I must say that I disagree with this. but I don't think that the Catholic Church condones this anyway (I know that the Catholic Church categorically condemns seeking out martyrdom since the late Medieval ages - Early reformation period. This tells me that they would not condone searching out suffering but rather accepting it shoud God lay it upon you.

John

Wiffey · Feb 23, 2005

I definitely want to put the issue of suffering in an Orthodox context. This is a near and dear topic to me for a few reasons. As a nurse, I spent my career trying to relieve others' suffering and trying to help others to cope with physical and emotional pain.
During and after my back surgeries, "offering it up" (or accepting it as having redemptive purpose) helped me to adapt to living with (and being happy despite the presence of) pain.

Mercifully, the discomfort is tolerable now. But I realize that I will never be free of physical pain as long as I live. I'm 35, so I have (probably) many years ahead. Accepting pain and disability is a lot easier when I feel that it can serve a positive purpose. I know that it has tempered me and strengthened me and made me a more compassionate person. It may sound strange, but I appreciate what I can still do so much, and I value what I used to take for granted.

In trying to make the best of things, I find myself wanting to make my discomfort serve a higher purpose, to offer it up prayerfully to God as a willing sacrifice. I know that makes sense from a Catholic perspective, but I am trying to refine my understanding by reading Orthodox authors. Thank you for your help with this.

countrymouse33ad · Feb 23, 2005

Perhaps it has something to do with Colossians 1:24, in which Paul spoke of his suffering being added to Christ's. St. John Chrysostom wrote this (according to The Orthodox New Testament, Vol. 2) - ... for he [St. Paul] will not have the sufferings to be his own, but His, through desire of conciliating these persons to Him. 'And what things I suffer, I suffer,' he says, 'on His account. Not to me, therefore, but to Him, for it is He Himself Who suffers.' " [Hom. 4, P.G. 62:352 9 col. 3260.]

The notes from the Orthodox Study Bible say this: (p. 464) Christ and the Church are so intimately united that, as we suffer and die with Him (beginning at baptism), so Christ suffers with us in our work of reconciliation.

Also, if you think about what Christ will say to the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25) on the day of judgment, it seems to add the suffering of the needy to His own sufferings. How do we respond to their suffering? It will be accounted to us as how we've responded to His. (see Study Bible notes.)

Beyond that, I have to plead ignorance. It does seem to me that we should offer everything to Him freely (and I fall short, every day) - whether joys or sufferings, and He may do with them as He pleases.

Wiffey · Feb 23, 2005

Jason the Evangelist said:
Gee....forgive me but that almost sounds heretical.

I'd like some clarification too!

I don't mean it to be! I acknowledge that nearly all of my context WRT the topic is from Catholicism. I'm trying to acquire an Orthodox mindset about it, but am not sure what that is, exactly...hence the thread .

Wiffey · Feb 23, 2005

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Publications/LifeinChrist/2004/july.html#jul01

It seems to be saying that by accepting our suffering and offering it up to God, we participate mystically in Christ's suffering on the cross.

NewToLife · Feb 23, 2005

The Russians have the concept of 'podvig' which may be of interest, here's a link discussing it;

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/podvig.aspx

Matrona · Feb 23, 2005

Using it to refine yourself spiritually is perfectly Orthodox, just in case you were worried.

Offering it for other people's salvation, OTOH, would show a hefty degree of spiritual prelest if you ask me, and indicate a really dangerous personal soteriology on the part of the person. Ask your spiritual father.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Feb 23, 2005

"A sorrowless earthly life is a true sign that the Lord has turned His face from a man, and that he is displeasing to God, even though outwardly he may seem reverent and virtuous." -Bp. Ignatius Brianchaninov

In Orthodoxy, illness and suffering are not seen as resulting from a lack of faith or torment from Satan (as some Protestants might think), but rather as a gift which is necessary for theosis (or dealing with our sinfulness). The Church Fathers also taught that illness is a way by which Christians may imitate the suffering of the martyrs. Suffering refines us, and as countrymouse pointed out, we join in, or participate, with the sufferings of Christ. We are also to endure suffering to develop patience and trust in God:

"You should not think that you can find virtue when you are not irritated--for it is not in your power to prevent troubles from happening. Rather, you should look for patience as the result of your own humility and longsuffering, for patience does depend upon your own will." -St. John Cassian

"You are striken by this sickness so that you will not depart barren to God. If you can endure, and give thanks to God, this sickness will be accounted to you as spiritual work." -St. Barsanouphius and John, Philokalia.

As far as suffering on another's behalf, I don't think that is Orthodox. However, one could argue that this was what St. Xenia of St. Petersburg was trying to accomplish after her husband died in a druken brawl. She started dressing like him and living on the streets, apparently to suffer on his behalf. Does anyone else know more about that?

Wiffey · Feb 23, 2005

What about offering one's suffering up to God as we pray for loved ones, or just offering it to God and humbly asking God to use it for His purposes, whatever they may be?

Matrona · Feb 23, 2005

Wiffey said:
What about offering one's suffering up to God as we pray for loved ones, or just offering it to God and humbly asking God to use it for His purposes, whatever they may be?

That sounds a little too much like "transfer my suffering credits to someone else if there's an excess".

As for St. Xenia, my priest noted the other day that just because a saint did something doesn't mean we should emulate them directly.

I think God honored St. Xenia's fervent desire for her husband's soul to be saved, but that doesn't mean we should all go tromping around dressed in other people's clothes hoping to do enough good deeds to save them. I don't think that's why St. Xenia's husband was saved--I think it was simply because of her willingness to do whatever it took to save her husband. Not what she did, but her willingness itself. But I'm not God so I could be mistaken.

Theophorus · Feb 23, 2005

About the grief that torments you, I have told your many times that it is your cross which our Jesus has given to you so that you may become an imitator of Him and not be a stranger to His love. For whoever loves Him sincerely folows Him not only to Mount Tabor where the glory of His divinity appeared (in other words, not only at the time of His visitation through His sweet grace and joy), but follows Him also on the uphill climb to Golgatha and His crucifixion ( in other words, also in the absence of His grace and in sorrowful occurences, which produce distress, pain, despair, perplexity, labor, and sweat). Precisely then is the inner man tested and it is revealed what he is: counterfeit or true, skilled or unskilled, captain or sailor. Precisely then are our intentions tested, and he who is courageous and patient is rewarded internally by the visitation of God through the increase of grace. In this manner, the Christian is trained in the spiritual struggle until he reaches the end and finds rest.

Elder Ephraim

vanshan · Feb 23, 2005

I like what Seraphim Rose says here:

www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/fsr_84.aspx

"Some people seem to have an easy and uncomplicated path in lifeor so it seems from outside; while for others like you everything seems complicated and difficult. Dont let that bother you. Actually, from the spiritual point of view, those who really have an easy time are probably in danger!precisely because without the element of suffering through whatever God sends, there is no spiritual profit or advancement. God knows each of us better than we know ourselves, and He sends what is needful for us, whatever we may think!"

Xpycoctomos · Feb 23, 2005

Matrona said:
Using it to refine yourself spiritually is perfectly Orthodox, just in case you were worried.

Offering it for other people's salvation, OTOH, would show a hefty degree of spiritual prelest if you ask me, and indicate a really dangerous personal soteriology on the part of the person. Ask your spiritual father.

That is a really good point. "personal soteriology" hits the possible problem right on the head. There definitely does need to be some careful balancing there. It seems to be that it's not the suffering itself that helps another, but rather the suffering that (if we use it correctly) will strengthen us spiritually and therefore the efectiveness of our prayers for that person. Prayers automatically point to the power of God and God alone. If we simplify it too much, I would think it would be easy to fall into the trap Matrona warns us of.

Very intereseting articles by the way. this is a interesting thread.

John

Xpycoctomos · Feb 23, 2005

To add to matrona's point... even if we do keep in mind that it is our strengthened prayers that help the other person (only through the power of Christ), we should keep suffering in perspective, the perspective that GDE pointed out: The point is Theosis... coming closer to Christ, not what we can get out of it (not that Wiffy is doing that... I just thought it was an interesting point.

John

Fotina · Feb 23, 2005

Xpycoctomos said:
To add to matrona's point... even if we do keep in mind that it is our strengthened prayers that help the other person (only through the power of Christ), we should keep suffering in perspective, the perspective that GDE pointed out: The point is Theosis... coming closer to Christ, not what we can get out of it (not that Wiffy is doing that... I just thought it was an interesting point.

John

I agree. My sense of Orthodoxy is we should offer ourselves to be transformed by God in any and all circumstances. The lives of the Saints are great examples: Saint Nektarios of Aegina who humbly submitted to false accusation and slander; Father Arseny to the cruel tortures of the Soviet gulags; Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain suffered terrible pain in his last illness, but did not want to pray to be healed as he said it [his infirmity] was profitable to his spirit.

Even more wonderful is not only can I be blessed in any affliction, but those around me too.

Romans 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Fotina

Marjorie · Feb 23, 2005

I don't think offering up suffering for others is heretical. We are a "communion of his sufferings" (Phil. 3:10)-- not just a communion with God, but with each other. Our Tradition is full of stories of some holy man or woman offering up an ascetic feat for the salvation of another... this, of course, can be dangerous if meddled with, but to say that we cannot suffer for each other-- mystically for the sake of each other-- is like saying prayer should only be a conversation from soul to God instead of involving all of Creation.

The Holy Tsar-Martyr Nicolas certainly saw himself as suffering for his people; he even poetically speculated that perhaps it was God's will for him to offer up an "expiatory sacrifice." ("So be it!") But that also is tied up with notions of kingship and the King as an icon of Christ.

Besides for that, there is St. Xenia... and I also am thinking of the discussion in The Mountain of Silence of praying and fasting and doing podvigs for dead elders or dead disciples and so on.

So while of course not all ideas about suffering for others are Orthodox; there are forms of it that are very Orthodox.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

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