Objections to Charismatic Teachings

[SavedByGrace3]

A member started a thread tonight that put forth a number of questions regarding Charismatic teachings. The thread was quickly and rightly closed by one of the mods. I agree that it should have been shut down because of the way in which the items were presented. If any non-Charismatics have questions about what Charismatics believe and wants to present them here, please feel free. In keeping with the rules of the forum, you may present questions, but not debate with those who respond. I hope the mods of this forum will allow this thread to remain open as long as the rules are followed and as long as the thread is productive. It is not really my call since I am not Moderator in this forum, but I do participate quite a bit in the discussions.
Rest assured, there are a number of Charismatics here who are very capable of defending their faith.
Blessings In Jesus
Didy

 

[AlabamaMan]

Thanks didy! I am glad you started this thread. As long as all rules of CF and the charismatic forum are followed we will leave it open.

 

[kdet]

Didy, I have a question...do you believe that a person has to recieve all the gifts of the spirit?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didy, I have a question...do you believe that a person has to recieve all the gifts of the spirit?

Good Question SK.
The only ministers that I am aware of that have all the gifts are apostles. Jesus was an apostle and possessed all the gifts:

Hebrews 3:1 WNT
1 Therefore, holy brethren, sharers with others in a heavenly invitation, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest whose followers we profess to be.

You ministry gifting is called a "grace" that has been given to you:

Ephesians 4:7-12 KJV
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

This is also seen in Romans 12:

Romans 12:4-6 KJV
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Your gifting is determine by your ministry, or, put in another way, the "part" of the body of Christ that you were made when you were born again:


1 Corinthians 12:7-12 KJV
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ...

Charismatics call this "body" ministry. Your gift is determined by your position in the body.

Hope this helped.
Didy

 

[victoryword]

I'd like to answer that last question. Didy can add more if he like (or correct me if he believes I am wrong).

The Bible doesn't seem to teach that one person will receive all of the gifts of the Spirit. On the contrary, the gifts seem to be distributed individually:

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ​

The passage goes on to ask, Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (vv. 29, 30). The obvious answer to that question is "no". However, we are encouraged to desire gifts and to ask for them.

Note: The "tongues" spoken about in 1 Cor. 12 should be seen as the "tongues and interpretations" that is equally to prophesy. It should not be confused with the prayer language available to every born again believer (Makr 16:15-17)

 

[victoryword]

Oh Didy, I was typing my answer while you had already posted. Sorry.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Oh Didy, I was typing my answer while you had already posted. Sorry.

Our answers complemented each other nicely I think bro!

 

[kdet]

I'd like to answer that last question. Didy can add more if he like (or correct me if he believes I am wrong).

The Bible doesn't seem to teach that one person will receive all of the gifts of the Spirit. On the contrary, the gifts seem to be distributed individually:

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ​

The passage goes on to ask, Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (vv. 29, 30). The obvious answer to that question is "no". However, we are encouraged to desire gifts and to ask for them.

Note: The "tongues" spoken about in 1 Cor. 12 should be seen as the "tongues and interpretations" that is equally to prophesy. It should not be confused with the prayer language available to every born again believer (Makr 16:15-17)

This is exactly what I have always believed but an elder last week got very confrontational with a friend of mine saying that he must pray in tongues.
He kept insisting that we recieve all of the spiritual gifts when we recieved the Holy Spirit....my friend was very upset

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Note: The "tongues" spoken about in 1 Cor. 12 should be seen as the "tongues and interpretations" that is equally to prophesy. It should not be confused with the prayer language available to every born again believer (Makr 16:15-17)

Well said VW.
Consider these proofs:
You are correct in saying that tongues +interpretation are what I call the "operational equivilant" of prophesying.
Not only can we all speak in tongues, but we should all prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:1 KJV
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

This would be a strange statement if it were not possible. We are of course not talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in chapter 12. We are talkin about the vocal gifts that are present in every born again believer. Your spirit does not need help to speak! It is not mute.

Paul said when he prayed in tongues, it was his spirit that prayed:

1 Corinthians 14:14 KJV
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

These verses suggest that all the members of the congregation can pray in tongues and prophesy:

1 Corinthians 14:23-24 KJV
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

And while we all do not have the Holy Spirit enabled gifts of prophesy and tongues, we all can manifest this prophesying that comes from the spirit of Christ in us:

1 Corinthians 14:26 KJV
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

All these manifestations listed are by the vocalization of the spirit of Christ that is in every one of us!

1 Corinthians 14:31 KJV
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Didy

 

[pentecostal girl]

This is exactly what I have always believed but an elder last week got very confrontational with a friend of mine saying that he must pray in tongues.
He kept insisting that we recieve all of the spiritual gifts when we recieved the Holy Spirit....my friend was very upset

Some churches teach that you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven. I can understand how your friend must have felt. I disagree with people who say things like,"Speak in tongues now" or " Recieve the Holy Spirit now" to me it sounds like your telling what God to do. God will work in his own time, not on our time God Bless

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This is exactly what I have always believed but an elder last week got very confrontational with a friend of mine saying that he must pray in tongues.
He kept insisting that we recieve all of the spiritual gifts when we recieved the Holy Spirit....my friend was very upset

Your elder was confusing the Holy Spirit gift of "diversities of tongues" with the spirit of Christ's ability to speak and pray in tongues.
We all do not have the gift of tongues.
We all can pray with new tongues out of the spirit of Christ in us.

 

[PatrickM]

Some churches teach that you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven. I can understand how your friend must have felt. I disagree with people who say things like,"Speak in tongues now" or " Recieve the Holy Spirit now" to me it sounds like your telling what God to do. God will work in his own time, not on our time God Bless

A big Amen to that! And though He does give "good gifts to those who ask", we Christians sometime forget that oft-used phrase regarding God's answers to our prayer, "yes", "no" and "wait"!

As the priest in the movie "Rudy" said, "we pray in our time, the answers come in His time."

Also, there is some "discussion" regarding the receipt of tongues as our prayer language, whether we receive this gift at Holy Spirit baptism or not (I believe there is, oh, about a dozen previous threads on this ).

I believe if we ask of God for such a gift, He will grant it, however, the "when" is up to Him. Sometimes people are hesitant to receive the gift, however, and God will not force anything upon us against our wishes.

This is a great thread, "teacher"!

 

[kdet]

Your elder was confusing the Holy Spirit gift of "diversities of tongues" with the spirit of Christ's ability to speak and pray in tongues.
We all do not have the gift of tongues.
We all can pray with new tongues out of the spirit of Christ in us.

Didy can you explain to a novice please what praying with new tongues entails? I am attempting to pray more deeply and ferverently..but that isn't what you are talking about here,is it?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I just want to point out that we all receive the spirit of Christ at the moment we are born again. I am not talking about the Holy Spirit here. I am talking about the spirit of Christ that replaces our fallen spirit when we are born again.

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The old adamic spirit was done away and replaced with the spirit of Christ. I like the way Paul puts it:

Galatians 2:20 KJV
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is accurate to say that if it is not longer I that live but Christ that lives in me, then when my spirit prays (or speaks) it is not longer I that speak but it is Christ that speaks in me.

Paul knew this and responded to the Corinthians with this:

2 Corinthians 13:3 KJV
3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

As a new born believer, when your spirit speaks it will often speak baby talk... this is what "Abba" is. It is the first words of your baby spirit crying out to God. It may surprize all who read this to know... but if you have ever cried out to God with agonizing prayer and groans, YOU WERE PRAYING IN TONGUES!
If you have ever praised out of "your" spirit, (in reality, it was the spirit of Christ in you) you were prophesying and fulfilling the scripture 1 Cor 14:26, Col 3:16, and Eph 5:17-20

Dear breathern... You do speak in tongues and prophesy!
You just have not been aware what your were doing!
Blessings
Didy

 

[Jim B]

praying with new tongues entails

You mean you have to wear a tux to pray in tongues?






just kidding

sorry sweetkitty

 

[kdet]

You mean you have to buy a tux to pray in tongues?






just kidding

LOL thanks I needed that!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didy can you explain to a novice please what praying with new tongues entails? I am attempting to pray more deeply and ferverently..but that isn't what you are talking about here,is it?

Partially it is dear heart.
Praying in the spirit just means to pray out of that compassionate spirit of Christ that is in you.
You have the same spirit of Christ in you that Jesus had when He ministered on the earth.
1. He saw the needs of others..
2. He "perceived" or empathized with their pains and sorrows,
3. He spoke out of that place in His spirit where that "pain and sorrow" was located. The words He spoke rasied the dead, fed the multitudes, and healed the masses.

Look at these amazing verses that unlock the mystery of working the works of Jesus:
John 11:33-38 LITV
33 Then when He saw her weeping, and the Jews who came down with her weeping, Jesus groaned in the spirit and troubled Himself.
34 And He said, Where have you put him? They said to Him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, See how He loved him!
37 But some of them said, Was this One, the One opening the eyes of the blind, not able to have caused that this one should not die?
38 Then groaning again within Himself, Jesus came to the tomb. And it was a cave, and a stone was lying on it.

I would submit to everyone reading this that Jesus was praying in the spirit here. He was empathizing with the sorrow and pains of these ones that He loved, He "troubled himself". The result of this action was that He raised up the dead!
You have the same spirit of Christ in you because of the new birth.
You also can groan within and trouble yourself!
These groanings are the most powerful prayer you can utter. You can do this now, just by allowing yourself to be around the needy and the sorrowful, and allow that spirit of Christ in you to do the works that come natural to it!

Yea sayeth the Lord, go forth in the spirit of my love and compassion! Go forth and move as I moved, see with the eyes that I saw through. Speak with the words of love and mercy that I spoke. Allow my words to be in you and work in you. My love is present in you. Be moved therefore by the spirit that lives in you, and you will present me to the world and you shall be a blessing to many.

Didy

 

[PatrickM]

Partially it is dear heart.
Praying in the spirit just means to pray out of that compassionate spirit of Christ that is in you.
You have the same spirit of Christ in you that Jesus had when He ministered on the earth.
1. He saw the needs of others..
2. He "perceived" or empathized with their pains and sorrows,
3. He spoke out of that place in His spirit where that "pain and sorrow" was located. The words He spoke rasied the dead, fed the multitudes, and healed the masses.

Look at these amazing verses that unlock the mystery of working the works of Jesus:
John 11:33-38 LITV
33 Then when He saw her weeping, and the Jews who came down with her weeping, Jesus groaned in the spirit and troubled Himself.
34 And He said, Where have you put him? They said to Him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, See how He loved him!
37 But some of them said, Was this One, the One opening the eyes of the blind, not able to have caused that this one should not die?
38 Then groaning again within Himself, Jesus came to the tomb. And it was a cave, and a stone was lying on it.

I would submit to everyone reading this that Jesus was praying in the spirit here. He was empathizing with the sorrow and pains of these ones that He loved, He "troubled himself". The result of this action was that He raised up the dead!
You have the same spirit of Christ in you because of the new birth.
You also can groan within and trouble yourself!
These groanings are the most powerful prayer you can utter. You can do this now, just by allowing yourself to be around the needy and the sorrowful, and allow that spirit of Christ in you to do the works that come natural to it!

Yea sayeth the Lord, go forth in the spirit of my love and compassion! Go forth and move as I moved, see with the eyes that I saw through. Speak with the words of love and mercy that I spoke. Allow my words to be in you and work in you. My love is present in you. Be moved therefore by the spirit that lives in you, and you will present me to the world and you shall be a blessing to many.

Didy

Very insightful, "teach".

A very long time ago, as a new Christian, I was prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I did not receive any prayer language at the time, though not for lack of desire, faith, or asking!

A few weeks later, I was at a small group study, and was being blessed by God soo much, I was in a quandry as to how to express my joy in the Spirit. Suddenly, without any analysis as to what was happening, I started releasing this bubbling praise to Him, and it wasn't in any language I ever learned!

Though it was, uh, er, a few decades ago, I can remember that day as clearly as the day I received Jesus as my Savior. I do not have the office, or gift of prophecy, but throughout my walk, I know whenever I have a need too great to express to the Father, I can rely on my prayer language to express what my heart is "groaning" about.

 

[LynneClomina]

Some churches teach that you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven. I can understand how your friend must have felt. I disagree with people who say things like,"Speak in tongues now" or " Recieve the Holy Spirit now" to me it sounds like your telling what God to do. God will work in his own time, not on our time God Bless

i think usually that they are not teaching that you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven, its that your faith is not truly saving faith if it isnt evidenced by the baptism of the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues.... and that is the prayer language, not the "gift". and that is available to all born again believers, which is why they are saying "speak in tongues now" and "recieve the Holy Spirit now".... they are not telling God what to do, they are telling YOUR INNER MAN what to do - that the prayer language of tongues is available to all and you just have to trust and receive....

at least thats how i understand it!
Lynne

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A member started a thread tonight that put forth a number of questions regarding Charismatic teachings. The thread was quickly and rightly closed by one of the mods. I agree that it should have been shut down because of the way in which the items were presented. If any non-Charismatics have questions about what Charismatics believe and wants to present them here, please feel free. In keeping with the rules of the forum, you may present questions, but not debate with those who respond. I hope the mods of this forum will allow this thread to remain open as long as the rules are followed and as long as the thread is productive. It is not really my call since I am not Moderator in this forum, but I do participate quite a bit in the discussions.
Rest assured, there are a number of Charismatics here who are very capable of defending their faith.
Blessings In Jesus
Didy