Obessing over the non essentials

[bible]Ephesians 2:8-10[/bible]

We are not saved BY works, we are saved TO works. We are not saved BY faith, we are saved THROUGH faith. We are not saved BY ourselves. We are not saved by doctrine. We are saved by GRACE (the grace of God). But faith and works are essential parts of the equation, only works is after the equals and not before it.

Project 86 said:

That is far from being a Biblical statement. If a person has a devil's doctrine such as you need works to be saved and we use the Bible to reject that how is that being man centered? The Bible warns us of bad doctrine and to speak out against it. You would rather shut us up and disobey God?

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Christians can work together even when they differ on doctrinal issues. Christian can disagree on doctrines as long as they don't agree on the doctrine of SALVATION and other important doctrines (i.e. Apostle Creed). Superiorism in regards to doctrines who have no compassion. Jesus in Matthew 15:1-3. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition (doctrine)?”

I don't know in a flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. I am 48 years old, I have learned so much about doctrines since I was a teen. To this day, I never met a Christian who AGREES with my beliefs 100%. I have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%.

The bottom line is that we ARE TO TRUST the Holy Spirit in this area. God will judge those who explain false doctrines. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Christians are divided on doctrine issues (teaching issues). This have been going on since the New Testament days (Read First Corinthians 9:11-17). Doctrines (teachings) that impacted many Christian lives and they are using doctrines more than they are using Holy Spirit to guide their Christian walk.

The bottom line is that Christians follow doctrines according to the Holy Spirit's conviction. The Holy Spirit gave me assurance of my faith and doctrines I follow. No Church, No Denomination, No pastors or anyone can do this for me. Holy Spirit is the ONLY person who can do this. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." Truth is, the Holy Spirit that can grasp our inner being only when we submit completely which will allow the Holy Spirit teach us, lead us mysterious and divine where we ought to go. "Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name." — Psalm 86:11. The Holy Spirit that leads my thoughts and shapes my character. Our true moral and spiritual state is revealed by the Spirit through prayer and studying the Word. Eternally, we are "eternal (spiritual) members" in the universal church of Jesus Christ, based solely on His merit and grace. If we are a Christ-follower, then we are already a member. This is eternal and unchanging (I Corinthians 12:12-13; Ephesians 2:13-22; 4:3-6; Colossians 1:13-22). Everyone who is saved is a member of God's Kingdom.

JimfromOhio said:

Christians can work together even when they differ on doctrinal issues. Christian can disagree on doctrines as long as they don't agree on the doctrine of SALVATION and other important doctrines (i.e. Apostle Creed). Superiorism in regards to doctrines who have no compassion. Jesus in Matthew 15:1-3. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition (doctrine)?”

I don't know in a flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. I am 48 years old, I have learned so much about doctrines since I was a teen. To this day, I never met a Christian who AGREES with my beliefs 100%. I have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%.

The bottom line is that we ARE TO TRUST the Holy Spirit in this area. God will judge those who explain false doctrines. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Christians are divided on doctrine issues (teaching issues). This have been going on since the New Testament days (Read First Corinthians 9:11-17). Doctrines (teachings) that impacted many Christian lives and they are using doctrines more than they are using Holy Spirit to guide their Christian walk.

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I'm glad your clarifying what you are saying. So you are saying we are not to judge people on nonessential doctrine. I would say though it is important to also compare nonessential doctrines and discuess them. That includes topics such as evolution, dressing modest and stem cell research.

Project 86 said:

I'm glad your clarifying what you are saying. So you are saying we are not to judge people on nonessential doctrine. I would say though it is important to also compare nonessential doctrines and discuess them. That includes topics such as evolution, dressing modest and stem cell research.

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I will speak up when I hear doctrines that I disagree with. However, I have learned to "remove myself" from my baptist upbringing tactics that causes strife. 1 Thessalonians 5:6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

I will still fellowship and debate with my Christian brethren even though I may not agree with their beliefs. I just don't worship with them and I won't submit to their teachings.

When I get to Heaven, if I find out God created the earth in a literal seven days, then it won't really surprise me. Would it really shock you if you get there and find out God took a few billion years to make it just as He wanted?

Rion said:

When I get to Heaven, if I find out God created the earth in a literal seven days, then it won't really surprise me. Would it really shock you if you get there and find out God took a few billion years to make it just as He wanted?

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All I can say regarding "this doctrine".... (which I will say to fellow Christians).

The comparison of time with God. A thousand years is like yesterday. It is like one day. One day is as a thousand years. God's perspective on time is not the same as ours. The Bible does not say one day is a thousand years to the Lord or a thousand years is one day. It is just a comparison point. For example, thes comparison of time when we consider an adult's perspective and a child's perspective. The most well-known example is when a family travel, "Are we there yet?" God is an adult while we are His children and people are saying "Did God created the World in 6 days?".

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

The Word of God says He created in 6 days, so my faith is to follow what He said. Just as Jesus was resurrected on the third day, so my faith is to follow what the Word of God says. God's time is different than our time, the main point is that God said He created in 6 days so we should believe what HE SAID and not debate about it. While I believe in literal at the same time the Bible did mention that God's time is not the same as our time.

All I do at this point is believe what He said whether it is literal or someone's interpration of God's time, God did it in 6 days now matter how you look at it. As God said:"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.' " Isaiah 55:8-9

“Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition (doctrine)?”

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DOCTRINE and TRADITION are two very seperate things, when I came to this point in your post I stopped reading.

James 3:1

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I'm going to have to be careful with this one.

Rion said:

Would it really shock you if you get there and find out God took a few billion years to make it just as He wanted?

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It would since I think the Bible is clear on the topic. Either way once we get to Heaven we'll have our doctrine straight and will have no need for debate which I'll be very thankful for since debating topics such as that one isn't something I enjoy doing but still have a passion for if that makes any sense.

All I can say regarding "this doctrine".... (which I will say to fellow Christians).

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Oh, I'm well aware. I'm just saying that I trust Christ enough that if it somehow was seven days I'd be like "Huh, I was wrong. Oh well."

RichardT said:

DOCTRINE and TRADITION are two very seperate things, when I came to this point in your post I stopped reading.

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According to Strongs, in GREEK, (Strong's Number:3862) Paradosis means a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

What I was referring to is this: The Jews of Jesus' day also placed tradition on an equal footing with Scripture. Rather, in effect, they made tradition superior to Scripture, because Scripture was interpreted by tradition and therefore made subject to it. Catholic may be famous for this however, many denominations (i.e. Baptist) also will do the same. If the Bible (the New Testament) were not written, I would follow the Church's traditions; however God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit have provided us the Bible. God is telling me that His Word is more important than traditions and that I should rely on the Bible for my own personal spiritual wisdom. If traditions are supported by the Bible, I will follow them. If some of the traditions are not supported by the Bible, I will study further (as Scriptures demands to "test the spirits") to see if they will benefit my spiritual well-being. If they don't, I will not follow them and I will stick with my Bible. Tradition like the Pharisees have no legitimate place of authority. That's why Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisees because their faith in Rabbinical tradition was in and of itself a seriously out of the covenant and commandments of God (Matt. 15:3). The point is, the Word of God needs no support from traditions, however, traditions do need support from the Word of God.

That's why Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisees because their faith in Rabbinical tradition was in and of itself a seriously out of the covenant and commandments of God (Matt. 15:3). Church is "body of believers". Not a formal organization of any kind. Christians belong to a spiritual Church that Christ have set up. Body of believers (Church) have approved the Bible so that we can use it as our spiritual guidance and spiritual authority.

I'm going to have to be careful with this one.

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You mean this verse? "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." For the topic on "judge us on our doctrine", I will focus on this...... A determination to know what cannot be known will harm fellow Christians. For teachers/preachers/witnessing or whoever is explaining doctrines to other people. God will judge those who explain false doctrines. We should be judging ourselves rather judging others. God is not impressed by my appearance (1. Samuel 16:7). The Lord said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person's thoughts and intentions (heart)." (NLT)

There is a way to discern the actions of the Holy Spirit.

[bible]Galatians 5:16-26[/bible]

many denominations (i.e. Baptist) also will do the same.

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Nope. All of my doctrines can be found in the bible. I can't believe you would but Catholics and Baptists in the same category.

. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do.

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Lol, is this seriously in the NLT?

RichardT said:

Nope. All of my doctrines can be found in the bible. I can't believe you would but Catholics and Baptists in the same category.

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LOL After being in a baptist church for 20 some years, I would KNOW.

Lol, is this seriously in the NLT?

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I use NLT when I witness to the deaf. You probably would not care or don't know about it.

RichardT said:

Nope. All of my doctrines can be found in the bible. I can't believe you would but Catholics and Baptists in the same category.

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Um, Rich, what verse says that the KJV is the only correct translation?

I know, you're going to say something about how judging from this verse, it seems perfectly logical to you that only the textus recepticus was descended from a long line of accurate copies...

But that's how Catholics got thier doctrines.

Because we're not saved by doctrines, but by Christ, any doctrine that isn't contrary to the divinity of Christ does not limit a person's salvation. Go and ask the Catholics "where did you get this idea from?" Chances are, they're just as closely related to the Bible as your doctrines are, they're just the result of a different interpretation.

Abbadon said:

Um, Rich, what verse says that the KJV is the only correct translation?

I know, you're going to say something about how judging from this verse, it seems perfectly logical to you that only the textus recepticus was descended from a long line of accurate copies...

But that's how Catholics got thier doctrines.

Because we're not saved by doctrines, but by Christ, any doctrine that isn't contrary to the divinity of Christ does not limit a person's salvation. Go and ask the Catholics "where did you get this idea from?" Chances are, they're just as closely related to the Bible as your doctrines are, they're just the result of a different interpretation.

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"what verse says that the KJV is the only correct translation?"

This is probably the most useless, and sometimes, dumb argument that I hear most of the time. This argument can be used to defend ANYTHING that someone wants to use it against. It can be used to justify pornography, since the word ponography isn't in the bible. Mormons can use it, Atheist can use it, Muslims can use it. Let's try and come up with something original, and thought provoking for a change please?

Rich is into the KJV only doctrine. You can quite easily say "no porn" from the "no lust" bits in the Bible, easy as that.

It's not dumb, you can't think of an arguement against it.

Look! A non-Christian doubting his faith! Go bother him instead!

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Lol man.. You crack me up.

Abbadon said:

Rich is into the KJV only doctrine. You can quite easily say "no porn" from the "no lust" bits in the Bible, easy as that.

It's not dumb, you can't think of an arguement against it.

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Ok, so find me a verse in the Bible that says the KJV isn't the only Bible?

Ahh, see how stupid that argument is yet?

Rich said that he gets all his doctrines from the Bible.

So where in the Bible does it say that the KJV is the only correct translation?

If you argue that Rich is allowed to choose KJV-onlyism because it doesn't deny it, then it'd be hypocritical to say that other denominations are wrong to choose doctrines that are not affirmed nor denied by the Bible or by reasonable interpretation thereof.

Abbadon said:

Rich said that he gets all his doctrines from the Bible.

So where in the Bible does it say that the KJV is the only correct translation?

If you argue that Rich is allowed to choose KJV-onlyism because it doesn't deny it, then it'd be hypocritical to say that other denominations are wrong to choose doctrines that are not affirmed nor denied by the Bible or by reasonable interpretation thereof.

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I suppose you don't consider the Bible to be the infallible, innerent, perfect word of God? See what non belief in 1 perfect Bible will do to you guys?