Numbers - Putting People to Death

[KaieraAi]

Hello!

So, in my Leviticus discussion we began to bleed into Numbers, so I thought I'd just make a new thread so I could do some additional discussion without spamming the last one.

So, there are a few different passages in Numbers (and Leviticus, and the OT in general) that discuss people being put to death for their sins. I suppose the issue I'm coming to is that killing someone for their sin is kind of stripping them of their free will, isn't it? In the world we live in today, we are free to sin or to follow God. The consequence of sin is death, but final judgement for our sins comes from God. We are given our lifetime to repent and to turn from our sinful ways and follow God.

But in the Old Testament, and especially in Numbers, there are multiple times when people sin, and are brought to Moses, and God tells him that the people must be killed. I just struggle to see, I suppose, perhaps because of cultural differences, how this firstly allows the people to have free will and choose to follow God or not, and second, how this allows them to repent or to turn from their ways. It seems these people are instantly damned, and that is something I struggle with as well.

If God loves us enough to send his son, he would literally do anything to save us from Hell, right? As long as we repent. So why aren't these people given the chance?

 

[LionL]

If God loves us enough to send his son, he would literally do anything to save us from Hell, right? As long as we repent. So why aren't these people given the chance?

I agree completely.
Which makes me doubt the OT.
To me (and I'll get slated for this) it's mankind trying to find God (misunderstanding Him and making some wrong decisions) - who didn't arrive until Jesus.

 

[Jair Crawford]

In my very humble opinions and interpretations, the killings are spiritual in meaning and largely symbolic and even prophetic. I am not convinced it is meant to be taken literally.

Consider the example (can't remember if in Numbers or not) of the man who had sinned in the camp. He, and this is the part that gets to me, along with his family and children were to be stoned to death. Yet his children did not even commit the sin.

So what does this mean? We have to look at it through spiritual eyes. In this case Israel foreshadows the believer. The man and his Family represent sin within the believer. The stoning represents the impaling of said sin to the cross, thus, our freedom From said sin.

I find that discovering the Christian meanings foreshadowed behind the ancient Hebrew texts to be far more enlightening to my spiritual life as a follower and believer in Christ, rather than a literal reading that God supposedly literally commanded. It makes more sense in context of the personality of Jesus as well.

 

[Noxot]

part of the reason why Jesus came to the world was to show people that they don't know God as much as they think they do because sin warps a persons perception of God even if God can manage to surmount and utilize whatever kind of condition humanity was in.

there is sometimes a vast gulf between society at large and individuals. that's why there were prophets who had much more insight and communion with God than say an entire barbaric tribe of diverse people who have not developed enough to tell their left hand from their right.

Jesus mentioned that evil people killed the prophets and this is one manifestation of what happens when various kinds of souls (some being more heavenly and others being more hellish) creates and interacts in the world together. so God has to in some measure work with what is.

so the communication can be pure on Gods part and still corrupted on humanities part. this is also why further and further revelation of God is possible in the world. it's due to humanities ability to progress and grow in spiritual maturity both on a macro and micro scale.

there is also the factor of Gods infinite and eternal nature. we are forever in a process of going to him more and more and so God is beyond what we think of as the truth, wisdom, goodness, and love in the sense that he is that so much that those terms can't fully express himself. but since we are finite we have to start somewhere and we then if clinging to God we ascend higher and higher and if we fall then we becomes cruder and cruder.

as we discover God we keep discovering ourselves who are made in Gods image. so one way we can somewhat know God is by what we are due to we being made in the image of God due to our union with God. with heavenly knowledge we are made a path to understand the bible from Gods hidden wisdom given by his angels rather than by mans somewhat insane nature.

so we must in spirit and in truth seek after God and cling to him to know him least we become tricked by evil spirits who utilize the bible for their own purposes. this psalm denotes the spiritual reality in how we come to know God.

Ps 91:9-15 (YLT)
(For Thou, O Jehovah, art my refuge,) The Most High thou madest thy habitation.

Evil happeneth not unto thee, And a plague cometh not near thy tent, For His messengers He chargeth for thee, To keep thee in all thy ways, On the hands they bear thee up, Lest thou smite against a stone thy foot.

On lion and asp thou treadest, Thou trampest young lion and dragon.

Because in Me he hath delighted, I also deliver him--I set him on high, Because he hath known My name. He doth call Me, and I answer him, I am with him in distress, I deliver him, and honour him.

God speaks of spiritual reality because his chief concern is our souls and spirits.

Mark 16:15-18 (YLT)
and he said to them, `Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation;

he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.

`And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak; serpents they shall take up;

and if any deadly thing they may drink, it shall not hurt them; on the ailing they shall lay hands, and they shall be well.'

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="KaieraAi, post: 72491386, member: 401821"]Hello!

So, in my Leviticus discussion we began to bleed into Numbers, so I thought I'd just make a new thread so I could do some additional discussion without spamming the last one.

So, there are a few different passages in Numbers (and Leviticus, and the OT in general) that discuss people being put to death for their sins. I suppose the issue I'm coming to is that killing someone for their sin is kind of stripping them of their free will, isn't it?
===================
Disobeying Yahuweh(God, the Creator) is sin, the penalty of which is separation from Him and eternal death.
His Word is TRUTH, always RIGHT, always Perfect in Justice and in Mercy.
What is any man, that God should even pay attention to him ?
===================
In the world we live in today, we are free to sin or to follow God. The consequence of sin is death, but final judgement for our sins comes from God. We are given our lifetime to repent and to turn from our sinful ways and follow God.

But in the Old Testament, and especially in Numbers, there are multiple times when people sin, and are brought to Moses, and God tells him that the people must be killed. I just struggle to see, I suppose, perhaps because of cultural differences, how this firstly allows the people to have free will and choose to follow God or not, and second, how this allows them to repent or to turn from their ways. It seems these people are instantly damned,
================
The Creator, Yahuweh, Has the Perfectly Righteous and Just Right to Do As He Pleases. He does not ask for anyone's permission, ever. Nor is He required to explain His Perfectly Correct Judgments, although He Does When He Chooses to.
The gods created by men , that's another story not even to be considered nor thought about.
================
and that is something I struggle with as well.

If God loves us enough to send his son, he would literally do anything to save us from Hell, right? As long as we repent. So why aren't these people given the chance?
================
Everyone is dealt with RIGHTEOUSLY by YAHUWEH, ALWAYS.
ALL of HIS JUDGMENTS are PERFECT, with no iniquity.
Not even a shadow of sin,
no spot nor wrinkle at all.
================


[/QUOTE

 

[KaieraAi]

What is any man, that God should even pay attention to him ?

God is a god of LOVE. He does not have to consider us, but he already has and does. He considered us and loves us enough to have died for us, and so we also live lives of mercy and love, an example of the merciful and loving God we serve.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God is a god of LOVE. He does not have to consider us, but he already has and does. He considered us and loves us enough to have died for us, and so we also live lives of mercy and love, an example of the merciful and loving God we serve.

yet, as God , who loves, says, most people reject Him and refuse to repent of serving demons.