NT in Aramiaic?

The Thadman · Feb 10, 2004

Higher Truth said:
HT:

Let's take a look at the babylonian talmud, which was written after the time of Messiah and the apostles. What dialect and letter type was that written in?

It was written in a Jewish dialect, not too far from the Syriac that the Peshitta and Old Syriac were written in (which is rather Jewish), but the script was Asshuri ("Hebrew Blockletters") as opposed to Estrangelo.

Asshuri was used mostly in Jerusalem and to the south, where Estrangelo became popular in the north, spreading all throughout Syria (Antoich, Edessa, etc.) and into India with the St. Thomas Christians.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

theseed · Feb 10, 2004

Higher Truth said:
Let's not forget about the Hellenic Jews that are mentioned in scripture. They had assumed the Greek culture and language.

Yes, there was a big emphasis due to Hellenism on education.

theseed · Feb 10, 2004

One of my favorite passages is when Yeshua reads from Isaiah and says, "Today this prophecy is fulfilled in your eyes"

Would this have been Hebrew or Aramaic?

koilias · Feb 10, 2004

Higher Truth said:
koilias:

You talk like a scholar, but can you back it up?

HT:

Coming on a little strong, aren't we koilias? Show me your proof of a Hebrew original. I am all ears.

I'm not coming on strong...I'm just slightly perturbed that you consider our scholarship is "pseudo". You make some strong assumptions, so naturally I wonder what kind of training you've had to wave us off so easily.

Let's just quickly glance at the passage Seed brought up... Here's the Greek:

Luke 4:1 ihsouV de pneumatoV agiou plhrhV upestreyen apo tou iordanou kai hgeto en tw pneumati eiV thn erhmon 2 hmeraV tessarakonta peirazomenoV upo tou diabolou kai ouk efagen ouden en taiV hmeraiV ekeinaiV kai suntelesqeiswn autwn usteron epeinasen 3 kai eipen autw o diaboloV ei uioV ei tou qeou eipe tw liqw toutw ina genhtai artoV 4 kai apekriqh ihsouV proV auton legwn gegraptai oti ouk ep artw monw zhsetai [o] anqrwpoV all epi panti rhmati qeou 5 kai anagagwn auton o diaboloV eiV oroV uyhlon edeixen autw pasaV taV basileiaV thV oikoumenhV en stigmh cronou 6 kai eipen autw o diaboloV soi dwsw thn exousian tauthn apasan kai thn doxan autwn oti emoi paradedotai kai w ean qelw didwmi authn 7 su oun ean proskunhshV enwpion emou estai sou pasa 8 kai apokriqeiV autw eipen o ihsouV upage opisw mou satana gegraptai proskunhseiV kurion ton qeon sou kai autw monw latreuseiV 9 kai hgagen auton eiV ierousalhm kai esthsen auton epi to pterugion tou ierou kai eipen autw ei uioV ei tou qeou bale seauton enteuqen katw 10 gegraptai gar oti toiV aggeloiV autou enteleitai peri sou tou diafulaxai se 11 kai epi ceirwn arousin se mhpote proskoyhV proV liqon ton poda sou 12 kai apokriqeiV eipen autw o ihsouV oti eirhtai ouk ekpeiraseiV kurion ton qeon sou 13 kai suntelesaV panta peirasmon o diaboloV apesth ap autou acri kairou 14 kai upestreyen o ihsouV en th dunamei tou pneumatoV eiV thn galilaian kai fhmh exhlqen kaq olhV thV pericwrou peri autou 15 kai autoV edidasken en taiV sunagwgaiV autwn doxazomenoV upo pantwn 16 kai hlqen eiV thn nazaret ou hn teqrammenoV kai eishlqen kata to eiwqoV autw en th hmera twn sabbatwn eiV thn sunagwghn kai anesth anagnwnai 17 kai epedoqh autw biblion hsaiou tou profhtou kai anaptuxaV to biblion euren ton topon ou hn gegrammenon...

(this is enough to get the point)...Greek doesn't like repetative syntax structures much like English. This Greek sounds like the KJV sounds to us.
Greek narrative loves to vary sentence structure and doesn't like beginning sentences with "and". Nor does it like to begin sentences with a verb in front of the object or subject. Notice how most of the sentences above do (I've marked them in red). This kind of sentence structure is the mark of LITERARY HEBREW NARRATIVE, my friend. If you don't believe me, pick up Josephus (a fluid Greek writer), 2 Maccabees (written in Greek) and contrast.

Dominus Fidelis · Feb 11, 2004

Defens0rFidei said:
Is there a complete Aramaic NT kept somewhere in the "church of the east"? I've heard that, is it true?

The Thadman said:
Yes it is true. I posted a blurb about it over in the Hermeneutics forum.

http://www.Peshitta.org and http://www.AramaicNT.org are good sites to investigate

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Ok, I read through your site, but I am still confused, forgive me, my children had me up all night.

So is Peshitta the Aramaic New Testament that I mentioned? The one kept in the "churches of the east?"

Also, I downloaded Yukhnch6.pdf (John 6) from Peshitta.org but I am having problems reading it...I can't tell if I am supposed to read the english portion right to left, left to right, top to bottom, or what...is there an easy to read English version?

Please spell things out for me...

The Thadman · Feb 11, 2004

theseed said:
One of my favorite passages is when Yeshua reads from Isaiah and says, "Today this prophecy is fulfilled in your eyes"

Would this have been Hebrew or Aramaic?

Probably the Aramaic of a Targum, IMHO.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Feb 11, 2004

Defens0rFidei said:
Ok, I read through your site, but I am still confused, forgive me, my children had me up all night.

So is Peshitta the Aramaic New Testament that I mentioned? The one kept in the "churches of the east?"

Also, I downloaded Yukhnch6.pdf (John 6) from Peshitta.org but I am having problems reading it...I can't tell if I am supposed to read the english portion right to left, left to right, top to bottom, or what...is there an easy to read English version?

Please spell things out for me...

The Peshitta is the version that the Church of the East and passed down for 2000 years, you are correct

How Paul's interlinear works is that the Aramaic reads from right to left, as it does naturally. His english translation would then be "backwards" (read it from right to left). When words are underlined, it denotes that more than one Aramaic word is being translated for that rendering (as to make a direct english equiv. would be awkward). Also, Aramaic sentence structure is retained, so you will have to parse it on your own (i.e. "Said Jesus to Peter" = "Jesus said to Peter").

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Feb 11, 2004

koilias said:
(this is enough to get the point)...Greek doesn't like repetative syntax structures much like English. This Greek sounds like the KJV sounds to us.
Greek narrative loves to vary sentence structure and doesn't like beginning sentences with "and". Nor does it like to begin sentences with a verb in front of the object or subject. Notice how most of the sentences above do (I've marked them in red). This kind of sentence structure is the mark of LITERARY HEBREW NARRATIVE, my friend. If you don't believe me, pick up Josephus (a fluid Greek writer), 2 Maccabees (written in Greek) and contrast.

This repetitive "and" sequence is inherent to any Shemitic language, not just Hebrew

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Dominus Fidelis · Feb 11, 2004

The Thadman said:
The Peshitta is the version that the Church of the East and passed down for 2000 years, you are correct

How Paul's interlinear works is that the Aramaic reads from right to left, as it does naturally. His english translation would then be "backwards" (read it from right to left). When words are underlined, it denotes that more than one Aramaic word is being translated for that rendering (as to make a direct english equiv. would be awkward). Also, Aramaic sentence structure is retained, so you will have to parse it on your own (i.e. "Said Jesus to Peter" = "Jesus said to Peter").

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Thank you Steve, I will try to read it as you suggest.

Higher Truth · Feb 13, 2004

koilias stated:

This kind of sentence structure is the mark of LITERARY HEBREW NARRATIVE, my friend.

HT:

My support for all fonts is currently not working, so I could not view what you put up. Since scholars agree that the common language of the Jews was Aramaic at that time, and that only the educated Jews spoke Hebrew in the Temple [the Gospels were written mostly by those without formal education, exception being Luke] I am not sure why you would support a Hebrew original over an Aramaic. As far as sentence structure, if a person comes to the US from Russia and learns English, and attempts to write their thoughts in their second language, their writing will retain the idiom and structure of their primary language. This is a commonly known fact, so why is it surprising that the Greek has retained these traits, when written by those who spoke Aramaic as a primary language among themselves. Remember, the Messiah spoke Aramaic on the cross, not Hebrew.

simchat_torah · Feb 13, 2004

only the educated Jews spoke Hebrew in the Temple

It is true that the Jews spoke Aramaic as the common everyday language. However, I would propose that most every Jew knew Hewbrew.
1) The Siddur used was in Hebrew.
2) All cannonical scriptures were read in Hebrew at they synagogue. There were a few Targum passages that were in Aramaic, but these were used for personal study by the Rabbis, not as scripture readings during services.
3) All of the prayers (ie: Sh'ma) were spoken in Hebrew.
4) The Torah was recited on shabbat (the parsha) in Hebrew.
5) All of the blessings were in Hebrew.

and much much more...

You see, there simply is no way that the common man was unfamiliar with Hebrew. That is just silly. However, Hebrew was not the primary language in central Israel, Aramaic was... (other pockets of Israeli communities spoke Hebrew as the common language). Certain parts of Israel did speak Hebrew as the common language, and technically it was somewhat the national language though Aramaic was really the predominant language. Did the commoner speak Hebrew? ABSOLUTELY.

Did the commoner speak Hebrew in everyday language? no.

Higher Truth · Feb 13, 2004

Simchat:

Did the commoner speak Hebrew? ABSOLUTELY.

HT:

By making this definitive statement, you are then saying that the Hellenic Jews spoke, read, and wrote Hebrew, which history and todays scholars do not agree with. It has also been said that many Jews read the Torah from the septuagint, because the hebrew language had been lost to many at that time.

simchat_torah · Feb 13, 2004

because the hebrew language had been lost to many at that time.

So let me get this straight... the Jews were able to maintain the Hebrew language during an approxiamately 500 year captivitiy where they were taken to another land and forced into another culture...

Yet for 70 years they were in their own land but were ruled over politcally by the Romans they forgot their Hebrew?

I'm just making sure I have this story straight...

Hix · Feb 13, 2004

Jews did not read the Torah from what could be described as the MODERN septuagint. However in the diaspora they had their own translated copies thereof and they do so in greek. Its quite amazing but it was discovered that all the countries in the diaspora had the same unchanged Torah all becuase of the laws regarding changing it in the Talmud. The only country with a change was I think somewere in Africa with 7 variations on words that didnt change their meaning, such as COLOR and COLOUR.

Anyway thats off topic, hebrew was transmitted and taught in all the countries but it was not the one used most often. This is becuase the tanach tells us hebrew is a holy language and Talmud also teaches it is the language with which HaShem desires prayer and praise. I have no doubt that the vast majority of people knew it, but at the same time it just was not more commonly spoken.

simchat_torah · Feb 13, 2004

Right on Hix. right on..

koilias · Feb 13, 2004

Hix said:
Jews did not read the Torah from what could be described as the MODERN septuagint. However in the diaspora they had their own translated copies thereof and they do so in greek. Its quite amazing but it was discovered that all the countries in the diaspora had the same unchanged Torah all becuase of the laws regarding changing it in the Talmud. The only country with a change was I think somewere in Africa with 7 variations on words that didnt change their meaning, such as COLOR and COLOUR.

Anyway thats off topic, hebrew was transmitted and taught in all the countries but it was not the one used most often. This is becuase the tanach tells us hebrew is a holy language and Talmud also teaches it is the language with which HaShem desires prayer and praise. I have no doubt that the vast majority of people knew it, but at the same time it just was not more commonly spoken.

While I understand and respect this view, I must say that it is not widely held in Israeli scholarship today. The late Prof. David Flusser at Hebrew U. said, "Jesus' teaching was originally transmitted in Hebrew and therefore can be fully understood only if we know its Hebraic background." This doesn't rule out the probability that Aramaic was a first language, especially in Galillee, but evidence favors the predominance of Hebrew among those who deal comparatively with the literature of the 1st century.

Higher Truth · Feb 13, 2004

HT said earlier:

By making this definitive statement, you are then saying that the Hellenic Jews spoke, read, and wrote Hebrew, which history and todays scholars do not agree with.

Simchat replied:

I'm just making sure I have this story straight...

HT:

Nothing to get straight with me. You need to talk to the scholars. So did the Hellenic Jews, who had assumed the language and the customs of the Greeks, read, write, and speak Hebrew?

simchat_torah · Feb 13, 2004

You keep referring to these infamous scholars. I have read it stated that Aramaic was the common tongue of the times, yes... but I have never seen a scholar ever say that the Jews were ignorant of Hebrew.

Dr. Fluesser, the professor who Brad Young studied under and the most respected scholar at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, disagrees with you. He strongly feels that Hebrew was actually spoken nationally in Israel during the first century.

So did the Hellenic Jews, who had assumed the language and the customs of the Greeks, read, write, and speak Hebrew?

"Hellenistic" typically refers to Jews of the Diaspora. They probably spoke mainly Aramaic and Greek, but would have known Hebrew as well for the same reasons I listed in my previous post.

Your assumptions are rather wild. I do not think that the Jews, who had previously been in Babylonian captivity for approxiamately 500 years and yet remained faithful to the Hebrew language, would suddenly forget Hebrew in a mere 70 year political struggle with the Romans.

As well, these infamous scholars you refer to are quite non-existent.

Oh yeah, and you can add to the list:
6) The Essene community spoke Hebrew as the common language.

be sure this list will grow...

I can list many other pockets of communities that obviously spoke Hebrew as the natural and common tongue scattered all throughout First Century Israel.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Higher Truth · Feb 14, 2004

Simchat Torah:

Your assumptions are rather wild. I do not think that the Jews, who had previously been in Babylonian captivity for approxiamately 500 years and yet remained faithful to the Hebrew language, would suddenly forget Hebrew in a mere 70 year political struggle with the Romans.

HT:

What language did the Messiah speak in the Scriptures?[Aramaic] What language did Paul use to address the crowd in Acts? [Aramaic] How many american born Jews speak or understand Hebrew except fot the few odd words read by the rabbi on shabbat? Hellenic means just that, and is not another term for diaspora, as the Jews went to many lands, not just Greece. If the list is going to "grow" cite the scholars along with your claims.

Higher Truth · Feb 14, 2004

Jews have lost touch with the Hebrew language at many times in various countries where they were dispersed into throughout history, and created languages comprised of the language of their country mixed with a few Hebrew words [Yiddish, Ladino] Most Jewish children in america who do not attend Hebrew school, or grow up in a home where the language is spoken will unfortunately lose touch with the Hebrew language.

This article is an interesting read:

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and the Revival of Hebrew

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/ben_yehuda.html

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