Not so complicated...

BABerean2 · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
The people is not the antecedent. The prince who shall come is the antecedent. The people destroying the city 100 years after the messiah is cutoff, proves that the antecedent cannot be messiah the prince, but the prince who shall come.

What does a Hebrew scholar say about your conclusion?

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BABerean2 · Nov 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
It is your point the living Nation of Israel is not capable of belief. They are still not abiding in Christ. They remain in unbelief. Are you saying modern translators know Israel is going to be forced to be saved in a day, or change their minds in a day? Does it matter which?

What matters is what the Bible teaches compared to what you are teaching.

There are thousands of young people in the modern State of Israel who are now coming to faith in Christ.
They are a part of the "remnant" found in Romans 9:27, which shows your statement above to be in error.

Your doctrine is one of the primary reasons the modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews.

The young man in the video below had the courage to speak the truth about the Gospel found in the Old Testament.

Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism)

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mkgal1 · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
Who is not called Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9, but a prince just the same? The prince who shall come, who will confirm the covenant with many for one week, 7 years. The Antichrist.

This is all being imposed on the text. It's not written in the Bible.

Douggg said:
Daniel 9:26 is a compound sentence. four subjects, four verbs.
Here is the breakdown. Verbs in red. Subjects in blue.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"Of the prince" is a prepositional phrase. "who shall come" is an adjective clause, describing the prince.

___________________________________________________

Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus. The Messiah cutoff in Daniel 9:26a is Jesus.

I agree with this.

Douggg said:
The only possible antecedent for the he in Daniel 9:27 if following the rules of English grammar is the prince who shall come.

No....because that phrase is a descriptive modifier not a subject as you already posted. "People" is that subject.. and "people" would be referred to with the pronoun "they" not "he".

You could describe those people as "people of the prophecy" and maybe then you could see that "he" cannot refer to "people of the prophecy"....nor can "he" refer to "prophecy" - part of the descriptive modifier for "people". The only possible antecedents are the subjects you put in blue text. Obviously "end" and "desolations" are disqualified as possible antecedents for "he"....and so is "people" out (that's plural). That leaves "Messiah"... which makes sense, because Gabriel's message was a message of hope. This prophecy is about Daniel's coming Messiah....the Prince of Peace.

mkgal1 · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
Well, I am not making that mistake, to come up with the wrong conclusion.

The prince who shall come is the one who will confirm the covenant with many of one week. And not Messiah the Prince.

It can certainly be denied that this is a Messianic prophecy........but that doesn't change what's True.

jgr · Nov 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
So you would side with Satan and say the church is in disbelief?

Copy/paste the quote in which I've said that the church is in disbelief.

The disbelief is found in dispensationalism, which claims a "Gentile church" for which the evidence, which I've cited, is entirely the opposite.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
There is only one person identified as Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9.

So what? That's in verse 25. Does that mean the reference to Messiah in verse 26 isn't Messiah the Prince just because it says "Messiah" and not "Messiah the Prince"?

jgr · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
Who is not called Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9, but a prince just the same? The prince who shall come, who will confirm the covenant with many for one week, 7 years. The Antichrist.

In the entirety of the OT, the word "antichrist" does not appear, because the word does not exist in ancient Hebrew.

In the entirety of Scripture, "antichrist", which occurs only in John's epistles, is never identified as a prince.

In the entirety of Scripture, Messiah is identified as a prince in multiple instances.

The attribution of the accomplishments of Messiah at Calvary to antichrist is nothing other than blasphemous.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
Daniel 9:26 is a compound sentence. four subjects, four verbs.
Here is the breakdown. Verbs in red. Subjects in blue.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"Of the prince" is a prepositional phrase. "who shall come" is an adjective clause, describing the prince.

___________________________________________________

Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus. The Messiah cutoff in Daniel 9:26a is Jesus.

The he in Daniel 9:27 is the prince who shall come, not Messiah the Prince.

For me, diagramming sentences back in the eighth grade was the basis for me making charts fifty five years later. A big shout-out for Mrs Owens.

Applying that type of logic to the following passage would lead to the same kind of strange conclusions that you come to regarding Daniel 9 (note that I'm not comparing this passage to that one directly, I'm just showing the flaw in your logic):

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In verse 8 the last individual mentioned is the Lord. Using the type of logic you use for to understand Daniel 9:25-27, we would conclude that the one "whose coming is after the working of Satan" would have to refer to the last individual mentioned before that, which was the Lord. But, of course, that would be a ridiculous conclusion and we know that it's actually referring to "that wicked" (man of sin). It is "that wicked" who was the focus of that passage. The Lord coming to destroy "that wicked" is a parenthetical statement and then it picks up on describing "that wicked" again in verse 9.

Similarly, Messiah the prince is the focus of the entirety of Daniel 9:24-27 with the reference to the people of the prince destroying the city and the sanctuary being just a parenthetical statement while the focus never switches to a different individual besides Messiah the Prince.

Timtofly · Nov 13, 2020

BABerean2 said:
What matters is what the Bible teaches compared to what you are teaching.

There are thousands of young people in the modern State of Israel who are now coming to faith in Christ.
They are a part of the "remnant" found in Romans 9:27, which shows your statement above to be in error.

Your doctrine is one of the primary reasons the modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews.

The young man in the video below had the courage to speak the truth about the Gospel found in the Old Testament.

Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism).

The more humans into the body of Christ is the goal, no? Still has nothing to do with what happens after the 6th seal is opened. If all of humanity alive today accepted Christ, Satan would not have any humans in his 42 months, and thus the 42 months would not happen.

Why the church is not praying for this every second of the day, instead of being concerned about the cares of the flesh is beyond me. It was the same though, the first time Jesus came. The Saducees and Pharasees were having the same arguments about the OT prophecies.

Timtofly · Nov 13, 2020

jgr said:
Copy/paste the quote in which I've said that the church is in disbelief.

The disbelief is found in dispensationalism, which claims a "Gentile church" for which the evidence, which I've cited, is entirely the opposite.

Because you claim the millennium applies to now. ie. the church. This is hardly the millennium and the church theology wise is in shambles. "Of one mind" is the farthest thing from reality these days. Some in the church think they are grafted into the olive tree, and if it is based on their theology, they are already cut off and in the fire.

That is my point. The Millennium is not going on currently, because the Millennium is by sight. Jesus reigning from Jerusalem, not faith, where we decide we cannot save ourselves and we trust in God's Atonement on the Cross.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Similarly, Messiah the prince is the focus of the entirety of Daniel 9:24-27 with the reference to the people of the prince destroying the city and the sanctuary being just a parenthetical statement while the focus never switches to a different individual besides Messiah the Prince.

That is why you need to make some charts, because those would reveal the flaws in your thinking as you try to put the chart together.

Daniel 9:24 includes to finish the transgression. What transgression?

The transgression of desolation that will be done by the little horn in the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 for time of the end... involving Gabriel interacting with Daniel of what it included in Daniel 8:23-27.

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel, nor anyone else really understood it. In Daniel 9, it is Gabriel again who appears to Daniel to help him understand the vision of the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation.

Which will be in the 70th week.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

So Gabriel addressed the matter of the 70 years prophesied by Jeremiah that the Jews would be in Babylonian captivity, and their return. And when the vision of the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation by the little horn person in the time of the end - who will be the prince who shall come.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

A person trying to understand Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks has to go back to Daniel 8 to know what the vision is and what the transgression is.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2020

jgr said:
The attribution of the accomplishments of Messiah at Calvary to antichrist is nothing other than blasphemous.

Hakhel - Wikipedia

The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This prophecy is about Daniel's coming Messiah....the Prince of Peace.

What I read is the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem, not upon the Messiah.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And the Jews, Jerusalem, have yet to say regarding Jesus - blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

mkgal1 · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
Hakhel - Wikipedia

The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years.

Where do you find "reading by the king of Israel" in the biblical text as cited here?

Deuteronomy 31:10–12
"9 Moses wrote down this Teaching and gave it to the priests, sons of Levi, who carried the Ark of Yhwh’s Covenant, and to all the elders of Israel. 10 And Moses instructed them as follows: Every seventh year, the year set for remission, at the Feast of Booths, 11 when all Israel comes to appear before Yhwh your God in the place that He will choose, you [priests, sons of Levi] shall read this Teaching aloud in the presence of all Israel.12 Gather the people—men, women, children, and the strangers in your communities—that they may hear and so learn to revere Yhwh your God and to observe faithfully every word of this Teaching. 13 Their children, too, who have not had the experience, shall hear and learn to revere Yhwh your God as long as they live in the land that you are about to cross the Jordan to possess (NJPS with modifications)."[2]

......allowing non-Christians, who do not believe that Jesus is God, to influence one's theological beliefs....I dare say....will most likely steer one's beliefs away from seeing Jesus (Yahweh....the Word....etc) throughout the Old Testament and into believing another gospel.

jgr · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
A person trying to understand Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks has to go back to Daniel 8 to know what the vision is and what the transgression is.

Debunked.

The visions of Daniel are recorded in chapters 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, and 10. In 2, 4, 7, 8, and 10, the announcement of the vision is followed in close proximity in the same chapter by the description and content of the vision.

There is no logical reason to believe that chapter 9 is different. The description follows immediately after its announcement in the same chapter, not in chapter 8.

Which is why you can find no one on the planet, past or present, who agrees with you.

Again.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Where do you find "by the king of Israel" in the biblical text as cited here?

Moses was the leader of Israel at the time, and he was the first to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by reading the law to the gathering of the people. Later, once Israel demanded a king like the surrounding nations, the king became the leader like Moses was. And the responsibility was placed on him. The king was also required to keep a copy of the Torah close at hand.

In the end times, the little horn person after Gog/Magog will come from north and west of Israel with a strong army into the middle east.

The Jews will think he is their long awaited King of Israel/messiah, and the false prophet will anoint him the King of Israel - which he will read the law to the nation of Israel broadcast from the temple mount. That is what is going to start the 7 years.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2020

jgr said:
The visions of Daniel are recorded in chapters 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, and 10. In 2, 4, 7, 8, and 10, the announcement of the vision is followed in close proximity in the same chapter by the description and content of the vision.

But the vision which Gabriel interacted with Daniel earlier is only in Daniel 8.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
That is why you need to make some charts, because those would reveal the flaws in your thinking as you try to put the chart together.

Please stop the nonsense. No charts are necessary to show the truth. That's why scripture is filled with words, not charts.

Daniel 9:24 includes to finish the transgression. What transgression?

I'm glad you asked. First of all, to finish the transgression relates closely to the next 2 of the 6 things in Daniel 9:24 to be accomplished in the 70 weeks after that one which was "to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity". This is a very clear reference to what Jesus Christ accomplished long ago with His death and resurrection.

The fulfillment of finishing the transgression, making an end of sins and making reconciliation for iniquity for the people of Israel (and the whole world as it turned out) can be seen in passages like these:

Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.

Daniel 9:26 says that "Messiah will be cut off, but not for himself". For what and for who? See above where it says "he was cut off...for the transgression of my people He was punished". To finish the transgression had to do with Christ providing a way for the transgression of Israelites to be forgiven, which He did with His sacrifice on the cross. He didn't say "It is finished" for nothing.

The following passages also show the fulfillment of the finishing the transgression, making an end of sins, and making reconciliation for iniquity as well:

1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

jgr · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
But the vision which Gabriel interacted with Daniel earlier is only in Daniel 8.

Daniel 9
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

You don't consider touching, informing, and talking to be interacting?

mkgal1 · Nov 13, 2020

Douggg said:
What I read is the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem, not upon the Messiah.

Yes....but as was the theme in Daniel 2....Messiah was promised to bring in an everlasting righteousness and to demonstrate that the True God is God of gods and Lord of Lords. Those that were faithful were His children.....His covenant family. Through the Israelites....came Jesus....the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy....the Son of David....the promised seed of Abraham.

From Ligonier Ministries:
But the end of the dream is the most remarkable part—a rock not cut by human hands would destroy all these kingdoms and become a mountain so large as to fill the whole earth (vv. 44–45). God’s kingdom, not established by human initiative, would rise victorious during the Roman era. Here we have a clear prediction of Jesus Christ. ~
"A Dream of a Statue | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org" A Dream of a Statue

Not so complicated...

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Amillennialist

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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