Not so complicated...

mkgal1 · Nov 11, 2020

Douggg said:
Do you believe that Messiah the prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus?

Yes.

Daniel 9:25
Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Yes.

Daniel 9:25
Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

Well, I knew that you did for certain.

So just go with the rest of my post #79, and you will see why I titled this thread "Not so complicated".

mkgal1 · Nov 11, 2020

Douggg said:
btw,

mkgal1, if you did your word search in the KJV bible, you would find 355 instances for "prince".

PRINCE IN THE BIBLE

Interesting.

KJV
Acts 3:15
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

BSB
You killed the Author of life, but God raised Him from the dead, and we are witnesses of the fact.

.....I sure hope you're not neglecting to acknowledge that this is Christ Jesus....the Messiah?

Douggg · Nov 11, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Interesting.

KJV
Acts 3:15
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

BSB
You killed the Author of life, but God raised Him from the dead, and we are witnesses of the fact.

.....I sure hope you're not neglecting to acknowledge that this is Christ Jesus....the Messiah?

Yes, of course it is Jesus.

BABerean2 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Yes, of course it is Jesus.

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

.

Of course Jesus is Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

Read my post #79 in this thread.

BABerean2 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Of course Jesus is Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

Read my post #79 in this thread.

I would rather read what was written below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Darby showed up on our shores with his Two Peoples of God doctrine, which is a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.

The comments below agree with what Paul said in Romans 1:16 about the Gospel being taken "first" to the Jews. Many here cannot give us a straight answer on when this time period occurred, and for how long it occurred.
They try to ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

................................................................

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
The concept is simple when you think about it. Jesus is the rightful King of israel, the One who God sent to be their King - but they rejected him, although he came in the name of the Lord.

The Anti-Christ is someone the Jews will embrace as the King of Israel, in error, who comes in his own name. A way of saying God did not send that person to be their King.

This concept may be "simple" but it's not Biblical.

In Daniel (especially chapters 2 & 7, 9), the general theme is that God's kingdom will come and humble the violent and arrogant kingdoms of this world. To turn the narrative into one with an antichist as the lead character is to turn the storyline on its head.

Daniel sets the stage for the ancient Hebrews to anticipate - with hope - a coming Prince that brings healing justice.

Daniel 2:28
But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days.

Daniel 2:34
As you watched, a stone was cut out,(d) but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

......that stone? "Not made by human hands". It shows up again:

Psalm 118:22
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

....and here:

Matthew 21:42-45
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.

.....and here:

Acts 4:11
For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, ‘The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.’

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Interesting.

KJV
Acts 3:15
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

BSB
You killed the Author of life, but God raised Him from the dead, and we are witnesses of the fact.

.....I sure hope you're not neglecting to acknowledge that this is Christ Jesus....the Messiah?

Douggg said:
Yes, of course it is Jesus.

Douggg said:
Of course Jesus is Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

We read in Daniel that Michael is called Prince who watches over (protects) Daniel's people....

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up.

.....and here, Michael is brought up again by name. We can clearly see what "side" He's contending for.....and many believe He is actually preincarnate (in Daniel) and postincarnate Jesus (in Revelation):

Revelation 12:7
Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

I believe the Prince that's emphasized throughout the Bible is this One (not an opposser):

Acts 5:31-32
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I would rather read what was written below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Darby showed up on our shores with his Two Peoples of God doctrine, which is a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.

The comments below agree with what Paul said in Romans 1:16 about the Gospel being taken "first" to the Jews. Many here cannot give us a straight answer on when this time period occurred, and for how long it occurred.
They try to ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

................................................................

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Do you believe that Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is Jesus?

Jesus is the Christ the King of Israel - coming in the name of the Lord. (Mark 15:31-32, you will find "Christ the King of Israel" )

The prince who shall come will be the Anti-Christ, the King of Israel coming in his own name.

_______________________________________________________

The concept is simple when you think about it. Jesus is the rightful King of israel, the One who God sent to be their King - but they rejected him, although he came in the name of the Lord.

The Anti-Christ is someone the Jews will embrace as the King of Israel, in error, who comes in his own name. A way of saying God did not send that person to be their King.

________________________________________________________

Then all we have to do is figure from scripture of where he comes from, how he gets into that position, and how later becomes the beast in Revelation.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

mkgal1 said:
We read in Daniel that Michael is called Prince who watches over (protects) Daniel's people....

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up.

.....and here, Michael is brought up again by name. We can clearly see what "side" He's contending for.....and many believe He is actually preincarnate (in Daniel) and postincarnate Jesus (in Revelation):

Michael is not Jesus, in spite of what Jehovah's Witnesses say.

Jesus does not have fight with Satan. Jesus is God Almighty and only has to speak and Satan is destroyed.

mkgal1 said:
This concept may be "simple" but it's not Biblical.

In Daniel (especially chapters 2 & 7, 9), the general theme is that God's kingdom will come and humble the violent and arrogant kingdoms of this world. To turn the narrative into one with an antichist as the lead character is to turn the storyline on its head.

The concept of Jesus being the rightful King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord, and another to be the King of Israel instead of and against Jesus, but coming in his own name is total biblical.

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Michael is not Jesus, in spite of what Jehovah's Witnesses say.

Jesus does not have fight with Satan. Jesus is God Almighty and only has to speak and Satan is destroyed.

I didn't know that was a JW belief.

ETA: I looked it up, and I agree with them here:

From link: Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. *
"Who Is Michael the Archangel? Is Jesus? | Bible Teach" https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/

What I disagree with the JW is that Michael/Jesus was a created being. I believe Jesus is God.....and that Michael is the preincarnate/postincarnate Jesus.

So, in your opinion, God wasn't involved in the fight between Michael and the dragon in Revelation 12:7?

Jesus is contending with Satan here....is He not?"

Matthew 4:1-11

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Jesus does not have fight with Satan.

What does this mean to you?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

mkgal1 said:
What does this mean to you?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

It means that Satan was behind getting Jesus crucified.

And that Jesus will destroy Satan.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

mkgal1 said:
What I disagree with the JW is that Michael/Jesus was a created being. I believe Jesus is God.....and that Michael is the preincarnate/postincarnate Jesus.

Michael is an angel. A created being like Gabriel.

Jesus before entering this world to be born of Mary was the Lord of Heaven - God. Not Michael.

Daniel 10:13 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
It means that Satan was behind getting Jesus crucified.

And that Jesus will destroy Satan.

Are you saying the Cross wasn't God's plan before Adam & Eve sinned?

The Bible says otherwise:

1 Peter 1:20
God chose Him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days He has been revealed for your sake.

Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

What about the "seeds" mentioned?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

......and you said Jesus doesn't fight with Satan...that He just speaks and Satan is destroyed. Who is the male child in Revelation 12 then?

Revelation 12:13-14
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Michael is an angel. A created being like Gabriel.

Which is what the JW believe.

But pay attention to His role He plays throughout Scripture. There's a storyline that runs from Daniel to Revelation.

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Revelation 12:7-9
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels

..I believe this goes along with Daniel 7 and Daniel 9.

....and in Jude, we read this about Michael (He, at minimum, speaks on God's behalf)

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Douggg · Nov 12, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Are you saying the Cross wasn't God's plan before Adam & Eve sinned?

No, that is not what I am saying. Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8.

Michael is an angel - one of the chief princes; i.e. one of the chief angels like Gabriel is one of the chief angels.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Michael is an angel. A created being like Gabriel.

Jesus before entering this world to be born of Mary was the Lord of Heaven - God. Not Michael.

Daniel 10:13 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Whether Michael is preincarnate Jesus.....or merely God's chief angel....He is identified in the same book - Daniel - as the "great Prince who protects your people". He's working in unison with God (as Gabriel was as well) - not opposing Him.

In Daniel 9:25, the text says:

Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince

......and I'm not seeing any others specifically identified as "Prince". The narrative seems to conclude with this:

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

mkgal1 · Nov 12, 2020

Douggg said:
Jesus before entering this world to be born of Mary was the Lord of Heaven - God. Not Michael.

Preincarnate Jesus has many names. Here are a few:

The Word (John 1:1)

"the angel of the LORD” (Genesis 16:7)

"presence” of the LORD (Exodus 33:14)

Yahweh (Exodus 3:2–6; Judges 6:14)

Not so complicated...

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency