Not quite religion, but then what?

Galatea · Dec 3, 2016

Robban said:
If you had a family, husband, children
and a group of invaders came to where you lived and they broke your door down,
they set light to your children and shot your husband,
Would you be able to forgive them?
Even if one of them had been injured, was dying and asked for forgiveness.

Yes, I would forgive them. I can forgive anything because I know what I've been forgiven. I could be an invader too. My sin nature is just like theirs.

I know it sounds pat, and rather easy to say it, but I could because Christ is in me.

I watched a piece about a kid in the Congo (I think, it was a place in Africa where horrible things were occurring).
This scenario actually happened to him. His mother was raped, and his family were killed in front of him. He was forced to enter their army. Anyway, after the war was over and he was released, he had an opportunity to meet one of his family's killers (the guy was in prison). This now young man went and met the killer and told him he loved him and forgave him. The killer was so surprised because of all the bad things that he had helped do to his family and himself. The young man is a Christian and when he found out that one of these guys was in prison, he felt God was moving him to go forgive this man.

So, it is possible to forgive the most heinous things. If I can find this clip, I will post it. It's been a while since I saw it, though.

Jack of Spades · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
I think it is scary to some people to hear that they can do nothing to help themselves. It means you have to give up control. It's a total abandonment of trying to "do" anything.

It's not scary, it's just very unjust. The idea that most humans go to hell is in itself bad enough and then add to that the idea that the ones who don't go there, get to heaven because they confessed the right doctrine, no matter how horrible or hypocritical people they were. It's very unjust and I believe God who's supposed to be just, could do much better than that. That's the problem I have with the system.

GrowingSmaller · Dec 4, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
I end up meeting nowadays more and more people who practice something and believe in something, which is difficult to define. Might be a bit like a religion, but isn't quite.

Would for example, people who believe in spirit guides be religious in your books? Or when someone believes they are spiritually one with the nature? When someone is just spiritual but not religious? What is it called when someone has a mix of life philosophy and spiritual practices, but doesn't really follow any particular religion.

What's in your opinion, a fundamental difference between things like life philosophy, value system, religion, spiritual practice etc.?

I don't really have any point to make here, just asking for random thoughts on the topic, for thought food. As nowadays traditional religions are losing ground, but people still practice all sorts of elements of religions, it's getting a bit blurry.

for certain there are "exact essences" and "morphological essences".

The former are black or white, all or nothing, the latter are vague and uncertain, with tricky borderline examples.

In todays more individualised faith landscape where people also have the web to access philosophy etc, outside of university, and with the "conspiracy" to undermine organised faith in some countries for business and also for moral and nationalistic puroposes, with the support of theosophic masonry (I am not trying to sling mud here, or complain, they can be and are good people) - well, thats part of the social equaiton.

Robban · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
Yes, I would forgive them. I can forgive anything because I know what I've been forgiven. I could be an invader too. My sin nature is just like theirs.

I know it sounds pat, and rather easy to say it, but I could because Christ is in me.

I watched a piece about a kid in the Congo (I think, it was a place in Africa where horrible things were occurring).
This scenario actually happened to him. His mother was raped, and his family were killed in front of him. He was forced to enter their army. Anyway, after the war was over and he was released, he had an opportunity to meet one of his family's killers (the guy was in prison). This now young man went and met the killer and told him he loved him and forgave him. The killer was so surprised because of all the bad things that he had helped do to his family and himself. The young man is a Christian and when he found out that one of these guys was in prison, he felt God was moving him to go forgive this man.

So, it is possible to forgive the most heinous things. If I can find this clip, I will post it. It's been a while since I saw it, though.

It is not about the ability to forgive,
rather the power to forgive,

We don't have the power to forgive the sins of others against others.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

Robban said:
It is not about the ability to forgive,
rather the power to forgive,

We don't have the power to forgive the sins of others against others.

We can not forgive their sins, I am a Christian- so I believe only Gid can do that through Christ. But we can forgive others their tresspasses against us. In this case, I mean tresspasses as offenses against us, not as in sin. Sins are against God.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
It's not scary, it's just very unjust. The idea that most humans go to hell is in itself bad enough and then add to that the idea that the ones who don't go there, get to heaven because they confessed the right doctrine, no matter how horrible or hypocritical people they were. It's very unjust and I believe God who's supposed to be just, could do much better than that. That's the problem I have with the system.

But, if we are talking about justice, NO ONE would ho to Heaven because NO ONE is perfect. Not one. It is mercy. Only, some will appropriate mercy, some will not. The justice part comes in Christ satisfying the need for perfection. If you want to come based on a justice method, God says "Not good enough, you were not perfect."

Really, what it all comes down to is pride versus humility. A proud person says "I can do x,y,z and be good." A humble person says "I can do nothing, even my good x,y,z is totally tainted. I'm completely broken. I can't save myself."

I do not want justice from God- God fotbid He gives me justice! I'd rather take His mercy.

Robban · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
We can not forgive their sins, I am a Christian- so I believe only Gid can do that through Christ. But we can forgive others their tresspasses against us. In this case, I mean tresspasses as offenses against us, not as in sin. Sins are against God.

The Big Ten are split in two,

first five, sins against God,
second five, sins against ones fellow.

The victim alone owns the copyright to forgive the criminals who commited crimes/sins against him.

In the example I gave the victims died and cannot forgive.

It was a case of murder, nowhere does it say thou shall not kill,
but thou shall not murder.

Therefore you do not have the Power to forgive them, even if they asked you for forgivness.

He gave the injured party a Power He withheld from Himself.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

Robban said:
The Big Ten are split in two,

first five, sins against God,
second five, sins against ones fellow.

The victim alone owns the copyright to forgive the criminals who commited crimes/sins against him.

In the example I gave the victims died and cannot forgive.

It was a case of murder, nowhere does it say thou shall not kill,
but thou shall not murder.

Therefore you do not have the Power to forgive them, even if they asked you for forgivness.

He gave the injured party a Power He withheld from Himself.

So, if someone murders another, then only the murdered person can forgive?

If someone murdered a family member of yours, you could not forgive them because you were not the murdered? Could you not forgive them because they hurt you by murdering a family member? Let's say you technically can not forgive them for murdering- can't you forgive them for hurting you, causing you pain? Sure they murdered your family member- but they caused you pain.

For instance, let's say you are in a bank, standing in line. A robber comes in and terrorizes all the customers, holding them hostage at gunpoint and inflicting emotional pain. He eventually robs the bank and leaves. You could say "I can not forgive him because he robbed the bank, and not me (let's say you're flat broke, and have no money in the bank).

Couldn't you forgive him for inflicting a great deal of emotional pain upon you?

I think this is primarily what people mean when they forgive people for murdering loved ones. Only God can forgive the actual act of murder, but people can forgive the emotional pain and grief inflicted upon them by the murderer.

Jack of Spades · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
But, if we are talking about justice, NO ONE would ho to Heaven because NO ONE is perfect. Not one. It is mercy. Only, some will appropriate mercy, some will not. The justice part comes in Christ satisfying the need for perfection. If you want to come based on a justice method, God says "Not good enough, you were not perfect."
Really, what it all comes down to is pride versus humility. A proud person says "I can do x,y,z and be good." A humble person says "I can do nothing, even my good x,y,z is totally tainted. I'm completely broken. I can't save myself."
I do not want justice from God- God fotbid He gives me justice! I'd rather take His mercy.

I see the mercy - part as part of the big picture, you think of the two separately without connection to each others.

Let's use word "inequality" then. Some will go to hell for thinking something nasty, some will get to heaven regardless of putting all those thoughts in action and more. That's favoritism.

In an ideal world, justice would not just be about punishment, but also about restoration. Think of someone stealing from a shop, then having to pay back by working for the shop. I think arrangement like that is as close to justice as one can get in an earthly environment. There is a punishment, the punishment is proportionate, the punishment helps the victim, and the perpetrator is given a chance to redeem himself for the victim, not just for the system.

Jane_the_Bane · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
But, if we are talking about justice, NO ONE would ho to Heaven because NO ONE is perfect. Not one.

And the only alternative to that is a cosmic Auschwitz, where people will be tormented for all eternity?
Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that what you say here is true: only divine perfection deserves to be in the presence of divinity/in the most pleasant of afterlives. This opens up a whole pack of questions:
If God wanted to be surrounded by beings who are just as perfect as he is, creating them would not have been much of a challenge. (And no "we were perfect before the fall" doesn't fly, either. If Man was perfect, he would have made the right choice. If a manufacturer was to present a "perfect" car that breaks down at the first quality test, what does that tell us?) And if fallibility is such an immense problem, yet God cares so much about his flawed creations - then why the metaphysical gulag? Yes, there are different beliefs as to just what "hell" is, but what's pretty unanimously assumed is that it's VERY unpleasant. If I was forced to banish a bunch of flawed creatures whom I appreciated dearly in spite of their profound defects, I'd make sure to design their exile as bearable as possible.

It is mercy. Only, some will appropriate mercy, some will not. The justice part comes in Christ satisfying the need for perfection. If you want to come based on a justice method, God says "Not good enough, you were not perfect."

Conditional mercy is no mercy at all. And unconditional mercy does not just extend to a couple of scraping yes-men.
And what good do blood sacrifices do? The assumption that an almighty being needs to see blood spilled in order to be "just" reeks of a profound misunderstanding of justice. Not a single murder was put right by spilling the blood of the killer. Not a single house was re-built by destroying the property of the arsonist. "Balancing the scales" can never be served by blood, because it only adds further damage to the equation.

Really, what it all comes down to is pride versus humility. A proud person says "I can do x,y,z and be good." A humble person says "I can do nothing, even my good x,y,z is totally tainted. I'm completely broken. I can't save myself."

I do not want justice from God- God fotbid He gives me justice! I'd rather take His mercy.

Treat people like beasts, and they will act as such. Treat them like good people, and they will respond in kind. Humility has got nothing to do with the kind of total debasement you describe here.

RDKirk · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
I disagree with your interpretation. The foundation is clearly Christ and Paul is clearly talking to believers. He talks about the works being on this foundation which is Christ.

Some of us are building with gold, silver, and precious gems. Some of us are building with wood, hay, and stubble. There are some of us whose work is going to be burned, but we shall be saved.

Who is saved as by fire if it is not Christians? I think the context is clear that Paul is talking about Christians whose work does not endure.

If anyone builds on THIS foundation, which foundation, Paul? The one he laid which is Christ Jesus. He doesn't say people who are building on other foundations.

People building on other foundations won't be saved- unless you are suggesting a righteous Muslim will be saved as by fire. The foundation HAS to be Christ in order to be saved in the first place.

It's very possible for Christians to build on a foundation other than Christ. Take, for instance, the foundations upon which many megachurches are built--not Christ. Take so-called "Christian nations" built on greed, war, deceit, slavery--not Christ.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
I see the mercy - part as part of the big picture, you think of the two separately without connection to each others.

Let's use word "inequality" then. Some will go to hell for thinking something nasty, some will get to heaven regardless of putting all those thoughts in action and more. That's favoritism.

In an ideal world, justice would not just be about punishment, but also about restoration. Think of someone stealing from a shop, then having to pay back by working for the shop. I think arrangement like that is as close to justice as one can get in an earthly environment. There is a punishment, the punishment is proportionate, the punishment helps the victim, and the perpetrator is given a chance to redeem himself for the victim, not just for the system.

There is a parable, where an employer has employees who work a whole day, a half day, just an hour. At the end of the shift- everyone gets the same pay. The people who worked the whole day were angry, "That's not fair!" But the employer is the boss, not the employees.

RDKirk · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
I'm not going by a dictionary definition, I am going by my definition. Religion says "do" faith says "believe".

You aren't using the scriptural definition, either.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

RDKirk said:
It's very possible for Christians to build on a foundation other than Christ. Take, for instance, the foundations upon which many megachurches are built--not Christ. Take so-called "Christian nations" built on greed, war, deceit, slavery--not Christ.

If they are building on any other foundation, I would posit they are not Christians. There's never been such a thing as a Christian nation.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

RDKirk said:
You aren't using the scriptural definition, either.

I'm probably going to get some flak, but I am a dispensationalist. This may explain to you my position.

RDKirk · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
But, if we are talking about justice, NO ONE would ho to Heaven because NO ONE is perfect. Not one.

Scripture denies that. Scripture indicates a good number of perfect persons, and as well, people are called upon to be perfect. In fact, Christ commands, "Be perfect, as the Father is perfect."

So what God means by "perfect" appears to be something different from what you mean by "perfect."

RDKirk · Dec 4, 2016

Galatea said:
I'm probably going to get some flak, but I am a dispensationalist. This may explain to you my position.

No, it doesn't, because I've been raised around dispensationalists all my life.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

Jane_the_Bane said:
And the only alternative to that is a cosmic Auschwitz, where people will be tormented for all eternity?
Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that what you say here is true: only divine perfection deserves to be in the presence of divinity/in the most pleasant of afterlives. This opens up a whole pack of questions:
If God wanted to be surrounded by beings who are just as perfect as he is, creating them would not have been much of a challenge. (And no "we were perfect before the fall" doesn't fly, either. If Man was perfect, he would have made the right choice. If a manufacturer was to present a "perfect" car that breaks down at the first quality test, what does that tell us?) And if fallibility is such an immense problem, yet God cares so much about his flawed creations - then why the metaphysical gulag? Yes, there are different beliefs as to just what "hell" is, but what's pretty unanimously assumed is that it's VERY unpleasant. If I was forced to banish a bunch of flawed creatures whom I appreciated dearly in spite of their profound defects, I'd make sure to design their exile as bearable as possible.

Conditional mercy is no mercy at all. And unconditional mercy does not just extend to a couple of scraping yes-men.
And what good do blood sacrifices do? The assumption that an almighty being needs to see blood spilled in order to be "just" reeks of a profound misunderstanding of justice. Not a single murder was put right by spilling the blood of the killer. Not a single house was re-built by destroying the property of the arsonist. "Balancing the scales" can never be served by blood, because it only adds further damage to the equation.

Treat people like beasts, and they will act as such. Treat them like good people, and they will respond in kind. Humility has got nothing to do with the kind of total debasement you describe here.

I'm probably not the best person to try and defend the faith. I'm not much of an apologist.

The mercy is not conditional- because it is available for all. It is up to the individual whether or not to accept the mercy that is there.

I think there is a problem with your equation. "Treat people as good and they will act like goid people." This isn't always the case, what about abused women who treat their husbands well- yet are battered? "Treat people as beasts and they will act as beasts." Not necessarily true, either. Thinking about WWII and those hideous camps, there are many stories of heroism coming from those places.

Christianity is a paradox- realizing you are nothing, yet of so much value that God Himself died for you. It's chockful of precious paradoxes.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

RDKirk said:
No, it doesn't, because I've been raised around dispensationalists all my life.

Alright, then you know my position about faith versus works.

Galatea · Dec 4, 2016

RDKirk said:
Scripture denies that. Scripture indicates a good number of perfect persons, and as well, people are called upon to be perfect. In fact, Christ commands, "Be perfect, as the Father is perfect."

So what God means by "perfect" appears to be something different from what you mean by "perfect."

Are you perfect as in sinless? I am not. If salvation depends upon me being perfect- then I am lost and without hope.

Not quite religion, but then what?

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