Not everyone gets into Heaven

Serious Faith · Jun 12, 2009

Truth is truth and cannot change. We cannot earn our salvation. But We can lose it. If it was the Holy Spirit's responsiblity to make us obey Him we would perfectly obey Him.

The reason why we don't obey Him 100% of the time is because we chose not to. What makes obey when we do?

It does not matter how many laws there are. We are not called to keep the law, but we are called to be holy out of love for God.

We are to fear and love God. "Through the fear of the Lord a man departs from evil."

MattLangley · Jun 12, 2009

Truth is indeed truth (what is is) though what you say is truth isn't necessarily truth but simply your opinion of the truth and/or interpretation of the truth. To look at a painting and say that represents X doesn't make X true, neither does arguing that X is in fact Y mean the painting is less true, the painting is what it is, it simply means that as humans we must interpret to understand and therein lies the lack of truth but instead our own personal understandings of what the truth means and is.

Serious Faith · Jun 12, 2009

chaela said:
Are you saying that God (who is Omniscient, remember) didn't see it
coming when He created us the way He did?

God doesn't have faults. He chose to create us the way He did. He is
the Potter. We're just the clay.

.

So why is God going to judge sinners?

What you say are your opinions not truth. I can back everything by scripture. I say that humbly.

To whom will Jesus say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness."?

To whom will Jesus say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlesness."?

AzA · Jun 12, 2009

Serious Faith said:
Are you suggesting that it is Gods fault that we sin?

I am not interested in questions of blame.

God is testing us not discovering us.

Testing implies a variable outcome unknown to the tester; it is a process of discovery. No one tests what they have full knowledge of, but they do work with what they have full knowledge of. When you choose not to build your house on a deck of cards, you do so because you know the strengths and limitations of both the cards and the materials you plan to constitute your house from.

Among living things, experience is both disciplinary and formative.

Serious Faith · Jun 12, 2009

God knows who will inherit eternal life. God is not testing us to find out but to establish judgement. The test is not for Him but for us, so that we may know. The bible says we are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We know that we are of God IF we keep His commandments. If a person truly believes in God, he will obey Him. Obedience passes the test, it proves that our faith is real. God already knows.

It is our fault if we sin after we know that we are not to sin. Why? Sin is a choice we make to give in to sinful desire and lust. God would not ask us to obey Him if we couldn't or if He did not want us to. I'm not assuming that anyone is not obeying God, I'm just reminding us that we are to make our calling and election sure by walking in holiness.

Rajni · Jun 12, 2009

Serious Faith said:
So why is God going to judge sinners?

Because He's the only one qualified to.

What you say are your opinions not truth.

I could say the same about what you've been stating.

I can back everything by scripture. I say that humbly.

I have been using scripture. You simply don't agree with me.
Your point?

.

AzA · Jun 12, 2009

Serious Faith said:
God is not testing us to find out but to establish judgement. The test is not for Him but for us, so that we may know.

This is a familiar argument to me; one of my churches uses it quite often in a neat way of shifting causality off God and onto creation.
I wonder why an acorn needs to test itself to see whether it is becoming an oak. If it is an acorn it will become an oak. If it is not an acorn, no testing on earth, in heaven, or in hell will make it an oak.

I still have no interest in questions of blame or fault.

Rajni · Jun 12, 2009

Serious Faith said:
Truth is truth and cannot change. We cannot earn our salvation. But We can lose it.

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to Arminianism. Salvation is God's
alone to dispense. His gift is irrevocable (Romans 11:29). Don't
you know the Scripture which states that God is not only the
Finisher of our faith, but also the Author of it? It's not ours to
choose or lose. He's in the driver's seat, not you. Haven't you
read the Scripture that tells us that He who began a good work in
you will bring it to completion? I've posted these Scriptures to you
previously and you seem to be ignoring them in favor of your own
opinions.

Is the thought of God saving everyone that repulsive to you? If so,
why? God Himself desires that all be saved. Since when is it a
crime to desire what He does?

If it was the Holy Spirit's responsiblity to make us obey Him we would perfectly obey Him. The reason why we don't obey Him 100% of the time is because we chose not to. What makes obey when we do?

What part of the Potter-Clay relationship do you not understand?

It does not matter how many laws there are. We are not called to keep the law, but we are called to be holy out of love for God.

You stated we must obey His commandments. This includes the
laws, so you can't preach commandment-keeping and ignore the laws.

We are to fear and love God. "Through the fear of the Lord a man departs from evil."

Fear as in awe and respect for our Creator is one thing. Obedience
borne out of a fear of "hell" is another thing altogether. We aren't
called to the latter. God doesn't need devils and demons snarling at us from the shadows to make Himself worthy of our love,
adoration, respect, etc.

.

Atlantians · Jun 12, 2009

DeanM said:
I see hell a place that is merely apart from God.
The question about who can find their way toward God in the afterlife is more dependant on the individual.
God shows us the path. He does not force it upon us.
Who is to say whether there will be some who can not find the path?
And who could blame God if they can't?
The ability to find God is based on one's ability to distinguish the good from the bad. If one has little practice of making this decision while on earth, they will be severly hampered in their efforts later.
Ultimately, God will want us all with Him. But who could blame a shepherd who does not lure wolves into his paddock with promises of blood.
Those who seek blood will find other paths.

Yours is a salvation based on works.

You also see hell as a place that is temporary and not eternal.

You say:
"The question about who can find their way toward God in the afterlife is more dependant on the individual."

"Who is to say whether there will be some who can not find the path?"

"The ability to find God is based on one's ability to distinguish the good from the bad. If one has little practice of making this decision while on earth, they will be severly hampered in their efforts later."

But God's word says:
Ephesians 2:
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work i the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—
====
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:
16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
[Removed for space]
22That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." 23But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in Him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespassesraised for our justification and .

Romans 9:
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Also, Christ is clear about eternal hell:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
[removed narrative]
46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

chaela said:
I'm afraid I don't subscribe to Arminianism. Salvation is God's
alone to dispense. His gift is irrevocable (Romans 11:29). Don't
you know the Scripture which states that God is not only the
Finisher of our faith, but also the Author of it? It's not ours to
choose or lose. He's in the driver's seat, not you. Haven't you
read the Scripture that tells us that He who began a good work in
you will bring it to completion? I've posted these Scriptures to you
previously and you seem to be ignoring them in favor of your own
opinions.

Amen!
And indeed, "God is faithful to complete the good work He began in us."

Is the thought of God saving everyone that repulsive to you? If so,
why? God Himself desires that all be saved. Since when is it a
crime to desire what He does?

I am afraid I do not follow you.
Are you suggesting that God saves all in a universalistic sense?

Serious Faith · Jun 13, 2009

Those who continue to ignore what Jesus did for them on the cross and chose to live in sin will not inherit eternal life. "If we(believers)continue to willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of truth, no sacrifice for sin remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgement that will consume the enemies of God". You have all been warned. Don't make excuses for your sin. When you are tempted chose to say no to sin a say yes to God. Show your love for Jesus is real by living in holiness. If you sin, repent & ask Him to forgive you. But please, don't believe the lie that you can live in sin and walk with God.

Serious Faith · Jun 13, 2009

AzA said:
This is a familiar argument to me; one of my churches uses it quite often in a neat way of shifting causality off God and onto creation.
I wonder why an acorn needs to test itself to see whether it is becoming an oak. If it is an acorn it will become an oak. If it is not an acorn, no testing on earth, in heaven, or in hell will make it an oak.

I still have no interest in questions of blame or fault.

So why does the Bible mention the "testing of our faith"? If you would like a list of scriptures that mention the testing of our faith I will look them up for you. My website is realseriousfaith.com

Atlantians · Jun 13, 2009

The point of testing is not that God would see how we will do,
it is for us to see how we will do.

The test is for us to learn,
not for Him to learn.

Rajni · Jun 13, 2009

Serious Faith said:
Those who continue to ignore what Jesus did for them on the cross and chose to live in sin will not inherit eternal life. "If we(believers)continue to willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of truth, no sacrifice for sin remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgement that will consume the enemies of God". You have all been warned. Don't make excuses for your sin. When you are tempted chose to say no to sin a say yes to God. Show your love for Jesus is real by living in holiness. If you sin, repent & ask Him to forgive you. But please, don't believe the lie that you can live in sin and walk with God.

What is your definition of "living in sin"?

How are you making a connection between everyone being saved
and attempting to "live in sin" while "walking with God"?

I'm also awaiting your direct responses to the questions I asked
you previously in post 108. Are you able to answer them or no?

.

AzA · Jun 13, 2009

SF -- one thing I love about nature is that things become what they are. No navel-gazing is necessary for a baby to grow. You live, you reap consequence, you learn what works and what doesn't, and you acquire wisdom through connection, encounter, and experience.

That's the order the Creator set up and it's very sound indeed.

Serious Faith · Jun 15, 2009

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, which are : adultery, fornication, uncleaness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jeolousies, outburst of wrath, selfish ambitions, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who continue such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".
Galatians 5:20-21

Rajni · Jun 15, 2009

Serious Faith said:
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, which are : adultery, fornication, uncleaness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jeolousies, outburst of wrath, selfish ambitions, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who continue such things will not inherit the kingdom of God".
Galatians 5:20-21

Praise God that in Christ no one will continue such things.
Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

.

MattLangley · Jun 15, 2009

AzA said:
SF -- one thing I love about nature is that things become what they are. No navel-gazing is necessary for a baby to grow. You live, you reap consequence, you learn what works and what doesn't, and you acquire wisdom through connection, encounter, and experience.

That's the order the Creator set up and it's very sound indeed.

Very true.

Serious Faith · Jun 17, 2009

chaela said:
Praise God that in Christ no one will continue such things.
Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

.

You are right, a Christian should not commit these types of sins. There is forgiveness if one falls if they confess and repents. "The Lord is good & His mercy endures forever".

SistrNChrist · Jun 19, 2009

DeanM said:
I see hell a place that is merely apart from God.

The question about who can find their way toward God in the afterlife is more dependant on the individual.

God shows us the path. He does not force it upon us.

Who is to say whether there will be some who can not find the path?

And who could blame God if they can't?

The ability to find God is based on one's ability to distinguish the good from the bad. If one has little practice of making this decision while on earth, they will be severly hampered in their efforts later.

Ultimately, God will want us all with Him. But who could blame a shepherd who does not lure wolves into his paddock with promises of blood.

Those who seek blood will find other paths.

I agree with your post. The question of whether we go to heaven or not doesn't depend on God, but instead depends on our free will and whether we make the conscious decision to accept Jesus into our hearts or not accept him. I once read that to be in heaven would be torture to someone who didn't accept Christ because there is so much sin in that person's heart, that it would be agonizing to be so close to a sinless God.

MattLangley · Jun 19, 2009

SistrNChrist said:
I agree with your post. The question of whether we go to heaven or not doesn't depend on God, but instead depends on our free will and whether we make the conscious decision to accept Jesus into our hearts or not accept him. I once read that to be in heaven would be torture to someone who didn't accept Christ because there is so much sin in that person's heart, that it would be agonizing to be so close to a sinless God.

So God's forgiveness is not unconditional (since it relies on a condition in us accepting Jesus) and is not of grace (since it's confirmed by our choice not by God's grace).

I prefer to believe it is in fact unconditional and fully by God's grace, that's just me.

Not everyone gets into Heaven

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