(NOT an evolution debate!) Does a belief in Evolution affect going to heaven?

No, does not affect salvation.

This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

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If the account in Genesis about the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall of Man is not literal, then a number of passages in the New Testament that explain the salvific efficacy of Christ's sacrifice on the cross make no sense. Here's one passage that is problematic (to say the least) if the creation account in Genesis is false:

Romans 5:12-19
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Paul the apostle has got it all wrong here if Adam is just a figurative character in a mythological account of creation. How does Jesus counter the effects of the sin of a fictional character with his real death on a cross? How does humanity suffer from the disobedient choice of a person who never actually existed?

In this passage, it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

If what the bible says is true, then that's the only requirement.

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But belief in Jesus as what? His role as Saviour is (at the very least) confused if the Fall of Man never happened. But it is as our Saviour that we are called to believe in Jesus.


Having said all this, I cannot say that belief in evolution absolutely precludes a saving faith in Christ. For the reasons I have sketched out above, a belief in evolution does make Jesus' role as Saviour rather puzzling and maybe even nonsensical. Why would you want to believe in such a Saviour?


Selah.

Parogar said:

it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

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Parogar said:

I humbly beg that this thread not become a debate on evolution. There is an entire forum for that, and the reason this thread is not created there is because it would not fit. Because this is not, I repeat, not a thread concerning whether or not evolution is correct. So again I humbly ask that it is not turned into such.

This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

In the interest of full disclosure, I currently have no religion, but I like Jesus, and I believe in evolution.

The reason I ask this question is because of the following quote from John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

In this passage, it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

If what the bible says is true, then that's the only requirement.

However, I've heard it said by any Christians that a belief in evolution precludes one from going to heaven on the basis that to believe in Jesus you must believe in God's words, and those who believe in evolution can't believe in Jesus because they don't believe in God.

My take? I don't think that's true. I think that, in that one single passage, it is made clear that what Jesus asks of us is to trust in him and to make him our savior.

And no one can know what another person is feeling. No one, Christian or otherwise, can reasonable claim that another person doesn't believe in Jesus just because they also believe in something else. That's called head-hopping. You can't know what someone else actually believes or thinks.

I don't think Jesus cares (personally) what people believe happened in our history. I am not convinced Jesus came to give us a science lesson. I also don't think the bible is meant to be a science textbook but a spiritual book.

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But are you putting your faith in evolution. See its what we put our faith into thats so important to god.

Parogar said:

I humbly beg that this thread not become a debate on evolution. There is an entire forum for that, and the reason this thread is not created there is because it would not fit. Because this is not, I repeat, not a thread concerning whether or not evolution is correct. So again I humbly ask that it is not turned into such.

This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

In the interest of full disclosure, I currently have no religion, but I like Jesus, and I believe in evolution.

The reason I ask this question is because of the following quote from John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

In this passage, it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

If what the bible says is true, then that's the only requirement.

However, I've heard it said by any Christians that a belief in evolution precludes one from going to heaven on the basis that to believe in Jesus you must believe in God's words, and those who believe in evolution can't believe in Jesus because they don't believe in God.

My take? I don't think that's true. I think that, in that one single passage, it is made clear that what Jesus asks of us is to trust in him and to make him our savior.

And no one can know what another person is feeling. No one, Christian or otherwise, can reasonable claim that another person doesn't believe in Jesus just because they also believe in something else. That's called head-hopping. You can't know what someone else actually believes or thinks.

I don't think Jesus cares (personally) what people believe happened in our history. I am not convinced Jesus came to give us a science lesson. I also don't think the bible is meant to be a science textbook but a spiritual book.

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According to the NT, the only thing that can prevent a person from going to heaven is dying in their sins without having them forgiven by the totally sufficient and finished work of Jesus on the cross as a done deal. This has to be done in the strictest of genuinity and is evidenced by a turning from all known lifestyle sinning with a proactive zeal for serving God and Others because of a Born Again nature that took place in the Individual . Romans 10:8-14 and John 3 .

Whatever other beliefs One may have had during their life whether accurate or not regarding the Universe , Humanity, God, creation, etc.... is inconsequential from an eternal residence perspective . However, it can and often does impact Ones life, views, motives, attitudes, etc....if we as Christians allow fallacious , inaccurate , pseudo-Christian beliefs to infiltrate our lives . That's why we must be very careful and to weigh up everything in accordance to Gods Word and not fully trust in what Men in White Jackets postulate nor what even our Pastors from the Pulpit espouse. We need to know Gods Word so well that we can immediately discern the difference between proclaimed truth and error. The apostle Paul commended people for doing exactly this in Acts 17:17.

As for Evolution....you ALWAYS have to distinquish WHICH Evolution you are referring to : Micro or Macro. Micro evolution represents small evolutionary changes within the kind / family of living things (biblical) , while Macro refers to the Darwinnian type of Evolution that has one kind turning into another totally different kind which initially began with abiogenesis or dead chemicals within our atmosphere burping into existence a fully functional life form commonly referred to as the first living Pond Protozoa that graduated upward to higher forms of life , which the Bible flat out denies occurred. You can believe in Macro Evolution and still be saved, but you would be highly deceived and inaccurate in addition to bringing dishonor to God and his written Word that indicates God made everything fully formed and fully functioning in the book of Genesis to which he called 'Good, very good' which he never would have done to a creation filled with bloodshed, cancer, animals tearing each other to pieces and the like via Darwinnian Evolution . God in his perfect nature and character made a Creation to reflect his nature : Perfection and without chaos and certainly not by accidental mutations. Everything with God is intentional and complete .

Hope that clarified this issue.

Parogar said:

This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

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No, no particular view is required.

In the interest of full disclosure, I currently have no religion, but I like Jesus, and I believe in evolution.

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I believe in (some level of) evolution, too - & I'm a Christian.

The reason I ask this question is because of the following quote from John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

In this passage, it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

If what the bible says is true, then that's the only requirement.

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"Believe" here (& elsewhere in the New Testament) implies faithfulness beyond intellectual assent - but to what you're saying, Jesus is our Savior & we hope in Him not just for the resurrection of our bodies, but the redemption of all things, life in His Kingdom without end. I wouldn't exactly call that "going to heaven" because that image tends to lead to misconceptions about what Christians believe.

Anyway, yes, we hope in Christ.

However, I've heard it said by any Christians that a belief in evolution precludes one from going to heaven on the basis that to believe in Jesus you must believe in God's words, and those who believe in evolution can't believe in Jesus because they don't believe in God.

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That really crosses a line. It's just flat out wrong.

My take? I don't think that's true. I think that, in that one single passage, it is made clear that what Jesus asks of us is to trust in him and to make him our savior.

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I think you're correct.

And no one can know what another person is feeling. No one, Christian or otherwise, can reasonable claim that another person doesn't believe in Jesus just because they also believe in something else. That's called head-hopping. You can't know what someone else actually believes or thinks.

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Once again, you're correct.

I don't think Jesus cares (personally) what people believe happened in our history. I am not convinced Jesus came to give us a science lesson. I also don't think the bible is meant to be a science textbook but a spiritual book.

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Quite right.

The Bible is the story of God's people & ultimately points to Christ. It's not a science book & reading it as one is a mistake.

Parogar said:

I humbly beg that this thread not become a debate on evolution. There is an entire forum for that, and the reason this thread is not created there is because it would not fit. Because this is not, I repeat, not a thread concerning whether or not evolution is correct. So again I humbly ask that it is not turned into such.

This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

In the interest of full disclosure, I currently have no religion, but I like Jesus, and I believe in evolution.

The reason I ask this question is because of the following quote from John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

In this passage, it is said that whosoever believes in Jesus (assumed to mean accepts as savior) will go to heaven.

If what the bible says is true, then that's the only requirement.

However, I've heard it said by any Christians that a belief in evolution precludes one from going to heaven on the basis that to believe in Jesus you must believe in God's words, and those who believe in evolution can't believe in Jesus because they don't believe in God.

My take? I don't think that's true. I think that, in that one single passage, it is made clear that what Jesus asks of us is to trust in him and to make him our savior.

And no one can know what another person is feeling. No one, Christian or otherwise, can reasonable claim that another person doesn't believe in Jesus just because they also believe in something else. That's called head-hopping. You can't know what someone else actually believes or thinks.

I don't think Jesus cares (personally) what people believe happened in our history. I am not convinced Jesus came to give us a science lesson. I also don't think the bible is meant to be a science textbook but a spiritual book.

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The quick answer is no. Evolution does not disqualify one from

A) Being a Christian
B) Sharing in God's redemptive purposes and plan for the world

There are millions of Christians, myself included, who fully embrace the science of evolution and it is not problematic. Nor is there any reason as to why it should be problematic insofar as our hope in Christ is concerned. We confess the Creeds, we embrace the faith, we hope in Christ for our salvation from sin and death.

The longer answer is that "going to heaven" isn't the Christian hope. That is, salvation isn't about going to some "sweet by and by in the sky after we die", it is about God in Jesus redeeming, restoring the world--all of creation--and setting all things to rights. The Christian hope is life everlasting, the resurrection from the dead, in the Age to Come when God has made all things new, set all things right. That is, right here on Terra Firma.

And being a Christian and having hope for God's good tomorrow, God's future world, isn't contingent on rejection of basic science--such as evolution--it is contingent on the good Creator God who in His mercy has come down to meet mankind in his sin and death to rescue him, and all of creation, from sin, death, hell, and the devil and set all things to rights. It is about the good Creator God renewing and restoring the world in Christ.

Evolution is no more a problematic scientific premise within that than is gravitation, the heliocentric model of the solar system, or germ theory. Being a Christian and having hope in Christ is not nullified by embracing basic scientific premises or accepting naturalistic explanations for observed natural phenomenon.

-CryptoLutheran

Parogar said:

Thank you. These answers were very, very helpful.

One poster in particular mentioned micro vs. macro, and made it sound as though God would be okay with one and not the other.

It's just that when I read the NT (I was born Jewish, so I'm well familiar with the OT) I just ... I simply did not get the sense that Jesus was concerned with things on that level. I could of course be wrong.

But suppose I am. Suppose I go through my whole life believing that the story of creation was allegory but nevertheless fully put my trust and devotion in Christ.

In this case, I simply find it difficult to believe that the being who died for my sins would reject me based upon the metaphysical equivalent of getting a history question wrong on a school exam.

It's just that it never seemed to me (and again, I'm not preaching, just elaborating) that Jesus was concerned necessarily with how much we KNOW as he was with how we FEEL: about Him, each other, and ourselves.

A lot of it seemed like it was the "feeling" of things that was important to him. To both know and feel beyond question that He is our Lord and Savior and that there is none other before Him.

That's the Jesus I want to worship.

What I don't like is the idea of a Jesus who would turn me away just because I happened to make a mistake and be wrong about Adam and Eve being allegory.

And when Christians claim that my salvation is in jeopardy because of my particular views on history, it almost seems as though they themselves are making decisions that are reserved for God.

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Run children! It's the allegory monster!

Parogar said:

A lot of it seemed like it was the "feeling" of things that was important to him. To both know and feel beyond question that He is our Lord and Savior and that there is none other before Him.

That's the Jesus I want to worship.

What I don't like is the idea of a Jesus who would turn me away just because I happened to make a mistake and be wrong about Adam and Eve being allegory.

And when Christians claim that my salvation is in jeopardy because of my particular views on history, it almost seems as though they themselves are making decisions that are reserved for God.

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I agree.

Unfortunately, some view Jesus more like a police officer who is ready to enforce any imaginable rule & punish us for any possible mistake. I don't see this Jesus in the Gospels. The Christian faith is not a moral code, but a participation in the Kingdom of God, here & now & forever. A calling to help set things right in the world - & by grace be changed ourselves.

It really seems like you're on the right track.

Parogar said:

Thank you. These answers were very, very helpful.

One poster in particular mentioned micro vs. macro, and made it sound as though God would be okay with one and not the other.

It's just that when I read the NT (I was born Jewish, so I'm well familiar with the OT) I just ... I simply did not get the sense that Jesus was concerned with things on that level. I could of course be wrong.

But suppose I am. Suppose I go through my whole life believing that the story of creation was allegory but nevertheless fully put my trust and devotion in Christ.

In this case, I simply find it difficult to believe that the being who died for my sins would reject me based upon the metaphysical equivalent of getting a history question wrong on a school exam.

It's just that it never seemed to me (and again, I'm not preaching, just elaborating) that Jesus was concerned necessarily with how much we KNOW as he was with how we FEEL: about Him, each other, and ourselves.

A lot of it seemed like it was the "feeling" of things that was important to him. To both know and feel beyond question that He is our Lord and Savior and that there is none other before Him.

That's the Jesus I want to worship.

What I don't like is the idea of a Jesus who would turn me away just because I happened to make a mistake and be wrong about Adam and Eve being allegory.

And when Christians claim that my salvation is in jeopardy because of my particular views on history, it almost seems as though they themselves are making decisions that are reserved for God.

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a. God provided MICRO evolution within a family ...such as varieties of cats/varieties of dogs/varieties of birds, etc....but not jumping from a whale to a cow or an Ape to a Human.

b. Your eternity depends on what you did with Jesus in this life, and not what you did with history.

c. Most of us don't see our sins as any big deal, but they are to God. And its him that's the standard...not comparing ourselves to the guy next door or Hitler or Saddam Husein . Christ had to leave heaven in order to reconcile us back to God so that tells you our sin was extremely grave in the eyes of God otherwise he would have found another way to handle it.

d. Be sure you leave this life with Jesus in your Soul knowing him as Savior and King. It will mean sacrificing your pride however. To receive Christ and his finished work on calvary done for you, simply genuinely follow Romans 10:8-14 then after that, read Ephesians 2:8-10 for confirmation of the action you just took to be saved. Its a free gift from God for all who want a safe eternity.

e. I might add that there are millions of Messianic Jews today around the world and u don't have to relinquish your Jewish heritage to be a Christian ; you simply realize and acknowledge that Jesus was a Jw himself and the promised Messiah who came to save people from their many accumulated sins... Youll find local Messianic Jewish Churches around if you want to try one , and they still practice Jewish traditions but they know the Messiah Jesus. Even famous Rabbi Pinchas Lapide stated that Jesus rose from the dead based on the factual historical evidence .

Parogar said:

I humbly beg that this thread not become a debate on evolution. There is an entire forum for that, and the reason this thread is not created there is because it would not fit. Because this is not, I repeat, not a thread concerning whether or not evolution is correct. So again I humbly ask that it is not turned into such. This thread is to specifically pose the question of whether or not a belief in literal creation is required for salvation.

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it's not helpful to think of "heaven" as the reward for passing a theology exam

That out of the way, the point of the Genesis stories is not in addressing that kind of question, but in discussing theological truths about God, his intention for creation, the nature of evil, etc.

Parogar said:

Some people also claim a passage where it says that adulterers and the like can't inherit the kingdom of God.

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There are always people wanting to be the gatekeeper.

One might imagine that they will be perpetually at the gate, arguing about who should and should not be let in, and never get around to entering themselves.

But suppose I am. Suppose I go through my whole life believing that the story of creation was allegory but nevertheless fully put my trust and devotion in Christ.

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As what? As Saviour as the Bible commands? Why would you do that if Adam and Eve and the Fall were all allegorical rather than real? But if you don't accept Jesus as your Saviour, you have not understood the Gospel and I wonder then how you can be truly saved. The teaching of Scripture doesn't give us the freedom to accept Jesus on our terms.

In this case, I simply find it difficult to believe that the being who died for my sins would reject me based upon the metaphysical equivalent of getting a history question wrong on a school exam.

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It seems to me that the same naturalistic reasons that would press you to think of the Genesis account as merely figurative do so just as strongly in every other occasion of the supernatural recounted in the Bible. If you capitulate to this pressure regarding the Genesis account why wouldn't you do the same for, say, the Resurrection?

It's just that it never seemed to me (and again, I'm not preaching, just elaborating) that Jesus was concerned necessarily with how much we KNOW as he was with how we FEEL: about Him, each other, and ourselves.

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Well, this isn't what I see in Scripture. Jesus was very much concerned with truth. It is the truth, after all, that sets us free.

A lot of it seemed like it was the "feeling" of things that was important to him. To both know and feel beyond question that He is our Lord and Savior and that there is none other before Him.

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I've studied Scripture for a long time and this is not what I see in it.

That's the Jesus I want to worship.

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That's unfortunate. You don't get to decide what sort of Jesus you want to worship. Jesus isn't a mirror of your preferences. He is who the Bible declares him to be, not who you would like him to be.

What I don't like is the idea of a Jesus who would turn me away just because I happened to make a mistake and be wrong about Adam and Eve being allegory.

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Why should he turn you away for any error concerning the truth of spiritual things, then? How do you draw a line you mustn't cross if God's truth is dissolved by God's forgiveness? If truth doesn't really matter, why fuss about Jesus at all?

And when Christians claim that my salvation is in jeopardy because of my particular views on history, it almost seems as though they themselves are making decisions that are reserved for God.

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See above.

Selah.

ebia said:

There are always people wanting to be the gatekeeper.

One might imagine that they will be perpetually at the gate, arguing about who should and should not be let in, and never get around to entering themselves.

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That is so true. There are many who fancy themselves as gatekeepers on this website, it seems.

graceandpeace said:

That is so true. There are many who fancy themselves as gatekeepers on this website, it seems.

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Sad, but true

Well then I guess Jesus just isn't for me then. If I have to look at the stars, many of which are hundreds of millions of light years away, and intentionally pretend that the earth is somehow only 6000 years old despite the fact that that's not enough time for the light from most of the stars in the universe to even reach us, then I guess maybe God isn't for me.

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Before you completely over-react check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKGFezN0Cd4

Because I really do want Christ to save me, but I'm not willing to make myself look like a clown.

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Make no mistake: Even if you do have good scientific reasons of the sort Dr. Hugh Ross possesses for his belief in God, there will be many who still think your belief is ridiculous. If you're going to be a true follower of Christ, sometimes being regarded as a clown is part of the deal.

If you're saying a faith in Christ requires LITERALLY believing that the reason women feel pain during childbirth is because a talking snake told one to eat an apple, then I guess I'm just not cut out for Jesus, because nothing can make me believe that.

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Eve was cursed, not because of a talking snake, but because she chose to disobey the command of her Creator. In any case, God does not need you to believe in Him. He is perfect and requires nothing from us. We, however, desperately need Him. You, then, are the only loser when you demand to relate to God on your terms.

Selah.