Not about gays

[Joachim]

This is not about gays, which will probably disappoint many people around here for whom the whole gay thing is the end all and be all of life. I made a point somewhere else where the subject was physician assisted suicide that I was of the mindset that a person who wants to die and who uses the physician assisted method is simply a coward because they want to die but they are too chicken to do it themselves.

I also made a point regarding Ken Lay. For those of you who have been living under a rock the last decade, Ken Lay was the CEO of Enron and he stole millions from the company. He was convicted of his crimes. Normally under federal jurisprudence, the money that he embezzled would have been subject to redistribution through the judicial process. Lay instead decided to deed it to his family and commit suicide. No matter what you think of Lay or what he did, I feel that his final act shows an amount of courage and honor. It was not as if he was going to be in a position to enjoy the money but by taking his own life he ensured for the welfare of his family and he ensured that they were not going to suffer for his crimes, even if you would argue that they are no more deserving of the money.


I also bring this up because in the aftermath of the failed assassination attempt on Hitler in 1944, in which Rommel took part in, they gave Rommel the choice of taking his own life, in large part because they did not want to have to desecrate the memory of the most popular man in Germany. Rommel chose to commit suicide to protect the honor of his family rather than be subjected to a Nazi execution.


Throughout history there have been examples where people have committed suicide more for their personal honor, or to protect their family and the assets thereof, than out of a selfish desire to escape the world.


So basically, what I want to discuss here, as a nice way of diverting away from the gay thing, is the myriad of ethical questions that surround the act of suicide.

 

[Nathan45]

I think that if someone wants to kill themselves, it's their body they can do what they want with it. I also think that the fed should have taken all of the money that Ken Lay stole and then left his family. That's not his money and he can't do what he wants with it.

 

[Nathan45]

anyways, arn't catholics supposed to be against suicide in all cases?

 

[Joachim]

I think that if someone wants to kill themselves, it's their body they can do what they want with it. I also think that the fed should have taken all of the money that Ken Lay stole and then left his family. That's not his money and he can't do what he wants with it.

It's an aside, but in this country, we do have the concepts of private property, and if you are bold enough to shift assets before killing yourself, there is not a court in the world that will overturn that because private property and the rights of the deceased remain sacrosanct legal principles.


It was actually a common practice in ancient Rome for people who had fallen out of favor with the imperial regime to commit suicide because when they committed suicide they would preserve the assets and the patrician standing but if they were killed by the authorities themselves, that standing would be lost because they would be criminals and as such, their families would be the "families of criminals"

 

[Nathan45]

It's an aside, but in this country, we do have the concepts of private property, and if you are bold enough to shift assets before killing yourself, there is not a court in the world that will overturn that because private property and the rights of the deceased remain sacrosanct legal principles.

which is legalistic garbage, if it's not his money he has no right to leave it to his family when he dies. That money properly belongs to enron shareholders who he effectively stole it from.

 

[SughaNSpice]

Ken Lay died of a Heart attack while vacationing at his ski lodge in Colorado (embezzling millions from retirees pays off good doesn’t it?) The autopsy indicated that the cause of death was a heart attack.

At the time of his death Lay was continuing his court appeals to keep from paying back the money he stole and it was likely that his lawyers could have kept the process up indefinably so he was not ensuring anyone be provided for it was just a matter of outliving the people he scammed out of their money.

Since the appeals on his conviction were not exhausted his conviction was abated at the time of his death. When abatement occurs, the law views it as though he had never been indicted, tried and convicted. Department of Justice issued a statement that it "remains committed to pursuing all available legal remedies and to reclaim for victims the proceeds of the horrible crimes Lay committed. Also ongoing are the thousands of civil suits agiasnt him. The people he stole from can and are still seuing his estate.

 

[Joachim]

which is legalistic garbage, if it's not his money he has no right to leave it to his family when he dies. That money properly belongs to enron shareholders who he effectively stole it from.

Legalistic garbage is how I plan on making my living. Hopefully, after I am good enough at it to make partner, I will be able to invest my income from it into ventures that will allow me to fulfill my dream of building a solid gold mansion in the Florida Keys.

He may have stole that money, but he did actually steal it and keep it and managed to effectively use the legal system so that it stayed with his family. If we take that money away from his family it would tear our legal system asunder.

 

[BobW188]

I can't go along with you on Ken Lay. If the courts want that money, they'll find a way to get it. His family was hardly going to be left poor, unlike the thousands of those who had trusted Enron to exercise the most basic, reasonable financial prudence.
As for his suicide, if such it was, I'm an old jailer. You don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I remember inmates telling me: "You know Sarge, I didn't do this one [a statement I always took with a rather large grain of salt]; but I guess it just makes up for the times they didn't get me." As far as I'm concerned, that statement shows a great deal more honor than the cowardly act of a man who chose death over facing the well-deserved consequences of his own actions.
I dealt with all kinds in my time. Literally thousands. For courage and honor, I'd put Lay several levels below the average murderer. And the statement above that his death was from a heart attack, which was my original understanding, does not change the forgoing. My guys and gals didn't wear suits and ties; but they weren't so afraid of doing time that their hearts stopped.

 

[theVirginian]

The only honorable suicide I can think of is to be a POW that has info that puts future operations and fellow soldiers at risk knowing that I'll eventually be broken from torture.

 

[Joachim]

anyways, arn't catholics supposed to be against suicide in all cases?

What my faith teaches has nothing to do with this because it is my intent for this to be an abstract discussion on the matter of suicide, and to drag people away from the gay issue for a while. If people are going to spend time discussing what is not the most pressing issue facing America today (for that is the collapse of our economy) then they should at least divert it so they aren't talking about gays continuously, because gay issues honestly aren't that important until we get back to the natural minimum rate of unemployment

 

[Nathan45]

He may have stole that money, but he did actually steal it and keep it and managed to effectively use the legal system so that it stayed with his family. If we take that money away from his family it would tear our legal system asunder.

I don't see how. Seems like a lawsuit is in order by Enron shareholders, they'd have a very solid case if what you say is true about Ken Lay.

 

[SughaNSpice]

He may have stole that money, but he did actually steal it and keep it and managed to effectively use the legal system so that it stayed with his family.

And this is honorable to you???

 

[The Nihilist]

The only honorable suicide I can think of is to be a POW that has info that puts future operations and fellow soldiers at risk knowing that I'll eventually be broken from torture.

Then clearly you haven't thought about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepukku

 

[corvus_corax]

So basically, what I want to discuss here, as a nice way of diverting away from the gay thing, is the myriad of ethical questions that surround the act of suicide.

The ethics/morality regarding suicide and the Catholic Church is that suicide is wrong.
There you go
Now, you can "discuss" this all you want, but if you are an actual RCC, then there is no debate or discussion with you, despite your admirable attempt to divert E&M from the Gay Threads.

Or, perhaps, you just want to hear other people's POV regarding suicide without an actual debate ensuing?

 

[corvus_corax]

Then clearly you haven't thought about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepukku

~ahem~
there are quicker and less painful methods of suicide.
Simply posting a link about seppuku does not your point make.

 

[Mystman]

... a person who wants to die and who uses the physician assisted method is simply a coward because they want to die but they are too chicken to do it themselves.

I'd disagree with that in some cases. 'Good' reasons for using a physician would be.
1. You're unable to move out of your hospital bed, and thus the only do-it-yourself suicide option would be to cut/strangle yourself with hospital equipment in your reach.. not exactly a pretty or clean method. And passing nurses etc are probably going to stop you.

2. You're considerate of the people who would notice you dieing / need to clean up the mess. Sure, I could just jump in front of the train. But that would emotionally scar the train driver and the people who notice you doing it, the clean-up crew probably isn't going to enjoy it, and worst of all, the trains would be delayed.

The most considerate way of doing it yourself that I could think of would be to slit your throat/blow your brains out while at home, and telephone the police in advance so that your body is quickly found by professionals (instead of letting your corpse rot until the neighbours decide to check out what's up..). But even then, the lady on the phone who you tell "hi, could you send some police to my home, I'm going to commit suicide =)" is probably going to get some kind of emotional shock.

3. If you just want to die gracefully in bed with your loved ones surrounding you. Falling into a carefully administered chemically induced eternal sleep is just a lot "cleaner" than all those other methods involving bottles of random pills, vomiting, knifes, guns, wounds, horrible pain, screaming, liters of bloods, etc. Not to mention that your loved ones would probably be guilty of something if they just stood by while you commit suicide.

 

[Joachim]

The ethics/morality regarding suicide and the Catholic Church is that suicide is wrong.
There you go
Now, you can "discuss" this all you want, but if you are an actual RCC, then there is no debate or discussion with you, despite your admirable attempt to divert E&M from the Gay Threads.

Or, perhaps, you just want to hear other people's POV regarding suicide without an actual debate ensuing?

I am an actual Catholic.....who will be starting law school in 6-9 months. So, basically, arguing issues for a point that I may or may not agree with will be par for the course for the next 3 years or so, and throughout my career until I can get elected to the state supreme court.

 

[Joachim]

And this is honorable to you???

Not much that he did was honorable, in death though, he chose to protect his family. I am going to have to dispute where you said he died of natural causes because I distinctly remember hearing that he committed suicide because I remember people being angry about it for that reason.


But assuming he did commit suicide, it was an honorable act because the intent involved was to protect the family

 

[Joachim]

I'd disagree with that in some cases. 'Good' reasons for using a physician would be.
1. You're unable to move out of your hospital bed, and thus the only do-it-yourself suicide option would be to cut/strangle yourself with hospital equipment in your reach.. not exactly a pretty or clean method. And passing nurses etc are probably going to stop you.

2. You're considerate of the people who would notice you dieing / need to clean up the mess. Sure, I could just jump in front of the train. But that would emotionally scar the train driver and the people who notice you doing it, the clean-up crew probably isn't going to enjoy it, and worst of all, the trains would be delayed.

The most considerate way of doing it yourself that I could think of would be to slit your throat/blow your brains out while at home, and telephone the police in advance so that your body is quickly found by professionals (instead of letting your corpse rot until the neighbours decide to check out what's up..). But even then, the lady on the phone who you tell "hi, could you send some police to my home, I'm going to commit suicide =)" is probably going to get some kind of emotional shock.

3. If you just want to die gracefully in bed with your loved ones surrounding you. Falling into a carefully administered chemically induced eternal sleep is just a lot "cleaner" than all those other methods involving bottles of random pills, vomiting, knifes, guns, wounds, horrible pain, screaming, liters of bloods, etc. Not to mention that your loved ones would probably be guilty of something if they just stood by while you commit suicide.

The use of a cyanide pill would eliminate all of the issues you described, and as I have said before, I am under the impression that we issue cyanide pills to our secret service agents and probably some of our servicemen.

 

[Mystman]

The use of a cyanide pill would eliminate all of the issues you described, and as I have said before, I am under the impression that we issue cyanide pills to our secret service agents and probably some of our servicemen.

Yeah but the question was primarily about how the "average guy" commits suicide right?

The average guy doesn't have a supply of cyanide pills handy. The only way to 'legally' get that kind of deadly pills would be to get them prescribed by a doctor - in which case it would be physician assisted suicide, a method that you describe as cowardly?