Non-Trinitarianism is unscriptural

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Berean777 said:
Let there be LIGHT has a dual meaning, that is the creator is making his presence be known and at the same time his Spiritual presence resides over the waters of the deep, life comes forth from him and He kick starts Genesis.

The Living Word is the living consciousness that is the very utterance, meaning that he is the INFINITE being who is the source of all life before he even manifested himself within his creation as the Angel of Yahweh's presence" or "as Jesus of Nazareth".

In essence he is presenting himself as the source of all life when there was nothingness, a void and darkness and absence of any cosmic material quantity. Now you may disagree with me on this point but his consciousness transcends time and space before he even resided over his creation, when he uttered the words LET THERE BE LIGHT".

Jesus clears this up in......

There is definitively the conscious existence of the Living Word before anything came into being.

You mentioned in one post that the Father created the Son and then through the Son created the world. This would imply that through a created being God the Father created other creatures. This would be uncharacteristic of the God of the Bible to use another creature to create another and if you look at this definition it would be more procreating rather than creating. This thought would be preposterous to say the least.

That is why The Living a Word is the very bosom/heart of the Father who with the Father and being of the same substance/being of the Father has done this.

A creature cannot create and it would be against the Creator's prerogative to have another creature to create on his behalf as you have wrongly suggested.

Think and reflect on what I have said and understand that the Creator doesn't delegate his Creator role. This means that the Living Word who is the Son's conscious persona/personality within the one/substance, is the one Creator who is the one God.

We have one God being/substance within him three distinct persona's that qualify his motive and decisions according to his one mind and his one will.

The whole "consciousness transcends time and space" is mumbo jumbo to me. I like to deal in actual scriptural logic and not that sort of secular logic. Secondly, the whole creature creating creature is in the very nature of God to do. Why? Because he creates thing that image him. Take for example,

Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:26)

He didn't just create any wildly beast, he created something that imaged himself. What else did he do? He gave it dominion,

Then God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:28)

So we see two things indicated here. That God creates things that image himself, and that God gives it dominion. Lets take it further,

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1)

Notice how God himself made Moses as God to Pharaoh! So taking these things into consideration, we see indicated that God creates images of himself, God gives dominion that which reflects him, and God can also call it God.

So who then is the ultimate image of the Father that was created? Jesus Christ,

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

In Jesus Christ is the entire Godhead expressed. Because in him, just as the Father created and set the foundation first, so did Jesus create when the utterances began speaking the FILL the earth WITH THINGS and bring it order. So he TOO, is Creator, just as the Father, is creator. Jesus Christ IMAGES the very CREATOR nature of the Father as well. There is NO HIGHER THING THAT HAS BEEN CREATED BY THE FATHER THAN JESUS CHRIST.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Wgw said:
This would be compelling were it not directly contradicted by John 1:1-2.

It doesnt contradict it, you're getting very confused. I am in fact also affirming that Jesus Christ was there in the beginning. He was created there in the beginning which is WHY HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

Berean777 · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
The whole "consciousness transcends time and space" is mumbo jumbo to me. I like to deal in actual scriptural logic and not that sort of secular logic. Secondly, the whole creature creating creature is in the very nature of God to do. Why? Because he creates thing that image him. Take for example,

Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:26)

He didn't just create any wildly beast, he created something that imaged himself. What else did he do? He gave it dominion,

Then God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:28)

So we see two things indicated here. That God creates things that image himself, and that God gives it dominion. Lets take it further,

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1)

Notice how God himself made Moses as God to Pharaoh! So taking these things into consideration, we see indicated that God creates images of himself, God gives dominion that which reflects him, and God can also call it God.

So who then is the ultimate image of the Father that was created? Jesus Christ,

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

In Jesus Christ is the entire Godhead expressed. Because in him, just as the Father created and set the foundation first, so did Jesus create when the utterances began speaking the FILL the earth WITH THINGS and bring it order. So he TOO, is Creator, just as the Father, is creator. Jesus Christ IMAGES the very CREATOR nature of the Father as well. There is NO HIGHER THING THAT HAS BEEN CREATED BY THE FATHER THAN JESUS CHRIST.

Please explain to me how the Father used the Son to create all life and yet to you the Son is not the Creator.

Did the Son create all life? Yes/No

Is the Son the Creator? Yes/No

Is the Son one of two Creators? Yes/No

Hoghead1 · Nov 25, 2015

Well, Berean 777, I can't say that I much agree with you. I view Genesis as providing nothing more than two very sketchy highly cont4radictopry accounts of creation. This can readily be seen by a quick glance at the chronologies here. Gen. 1 clearly says anmiaa5 fir, then man and woman together; Gen. 2 clearly states firs came the animals, then man, then woman. If that isn't a complete contradiction, I don't know what is. Of course, as may be obvious, I don not at all hold with the inerrancy of Scripture at all. I view it as nothing more that a primitive, prescientific, pre-Enlightnment theory concocted by fallible humans and not at all supported by the texts. I view John as a wholly different, third account of creation. I am fond of it, because its panthetic leanings attract me.

Wgw · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
It doesnt contradict it, you're getting very confused. I am in fact also affirming that Jesus Christ was there in the beginning. He was created there in the beginning which is WHY HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

John 1:1-5 clearly shows that our Lord created everything; unless he created himself and is thus existentially recursive in some broader intangible spiritual pleroma, this means He cannot be a Creature.

Hoghead1 · Nov 25, 2015

Well, Berean 777, I hope you don't get the wrong idea of what I am saying about creation. You view of how God created does appeal to me. I take the position that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness into self-consciousness and self-actualization. I think the best way to think of God's relationship to the universe is that the universe is the body of God. I don't know any other model which does as much justice to God's great intimacy with all things.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Berean777 said:
Please explain to me how the Father used the Son to create all life and yet to you the Son is not the Creator.

Did the Son create? Yes/No

Is he the Creator? Yes/No

Is he one of two Creators? Yes/No

Good question. The Father created first by creating the heaven and the earth FIRST. Because notice in the account of Genesis how the heaven and the earth, and the water, and the Spirit, were already present before the words began uttering. It was then at the utterances that Jesus himself then BEGAN CREATING HIMSELF. What did he bring into existence? Everything that pertains the WORLD that is UPON the earth. In the new testament, when the word "world" is used in various passages, its referring to the things that are on the earth, not the earth itself. So the Father created FIRST, and then through the Son He created the world UPON THE EARTH. In part of the things Jesus spoke into existence, was also LIFE. Thats why all life comes from Jesus. Yet all these things come from the Father ultimately, because he FIRST LAID THE FOUNDATION HIMSELF, THEN INDIRECTLY created the world upon the earth THROUGH JESUS.

Wgw · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
Good question. The Father created first by creating the heaven and the earth FIRST. Because notice in the account of Genesis how the heaven and the earth, and the water, and the Spirit, were already present before the words began uttering. It was then at the utterances that Jesus himself then BEGAN CREATING HIMSELF. What did he bring into existence? Everything that pertains the WORLD that is UPON the earth. In the new testament, when the word "world" is used in various passages, its referring to the things that are on the earth, not the earth itself. So the Father created FIRST, and then through the Son He created the world UPON THE EARTH. In part of the things Jesus spoke into existence, was also LIFE. Thats why all life comes from Jesus. Yet all these things come from the Father ultimately, because he FIRST LAID THE FOUNDATION HIMSELF, THEN INDIRECTLY created the world upon the earth THROUGH JESUS.

So interestingly you say the Lord is paradoxically self-creating and thus lose one of the alleged advantages of non-Trinitarianism. You also run right afoul of John 1:1-5.

Berean777 · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
Good question. The Father created first by creating the heaven and the earth FIRST. Because notice in the account of Genesis how the heaven and the earth, and the water, and the Spirit, were already present before the words began uttering. It was then at the utterances that Jesus himself then BEGAN CREATING HIMSELF. What did he bring into existence? Everything that pertains the WORLD that is UPON the earth. In the new testament, when the word "world" is used in various passages, its referring to the things that are on the earth, not the earth itself. So the Father created FIRST, and then through the Son He created the world UPON THE EARTH. In part of the things Jesus spoke into existence, was also LIFE. Thats why all life comes from Jesus. Yet all these things come from the Father ultimately, because he FIRST LAID THE FOUNDATION HIMSELF, THEN INDIRECTLY created the world upon the earth THROUGH JESUS.

Thanks for your reply. Could you please answer three questions

Did the Son create all life? Yes/No

Is he the Creator? Yes/No

Is he one of two Creators? Yes/No

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Wgw said:
John 1:1-5 clearly shows that our Lord created everything; unless he created himself and is thus existentially recursive in some broader intangible spiritual pleroma, this means He cannot be a Creature.

It doesn't actually. Research the usage of the word "world". It doesn't actually mean the earth, and as you can read from the Genesis account, the earth was already present before Jesus began speaking. Jesus Christ created the "world" THAT IS UPON THE EARTH and not one thing that is IN IT exists without him.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Wgw said:
So interestingly you say the Lord is paradoxically self-creating and thus lose one of the alleged advantages of non-Trinitarianism. You also run right afoul of John 1:1-5.

I am saying the Father created the son, then the son created the "world". Nothing about self creation here.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Berean777 said:
Thanks for your reply. Could you please answer three questions

Did the Son create all life? Yes/No YES

Is he the Creator? Yes/No YES

Is he one of two Creators? Yes/No

YES

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Berean777 said:
Thanks for your reply. Could you please answer three questions

Did the Son create all life? Yes/No

Is he the Creator? Yes/No

Is he one of two Creators? Yes/No

YES TO ALL THREE.

Hoghead1 · Nov 25, 2015

Well, Berean 777, I can't say I agree with your exegesis of Genesis here. If you are interested in language, then I point out it is even more apparent these are two very different accounts. Modern biblical scholarship would date 2 and having been written much earlier than, long before the source (P0 for on1 came into being. Also, I find a number of unsupported points. You say that it's just the way ancient people used language. OK, fine. How do you know that?

Wgw · Nov 25, 2015

cgaviria said:
It doesn't actually. Research the usage of the word "world". It doesn't actually mean the earth, and as you can read from the Genesis account, the earth was already present before Jesus began speaking. Jesus Christ created the "world" THAT IS UPON THE EARTH and not one thing that is IN IT exists without him.

A subjective personal interpretation not backed by Scripture.

cgaviria said:
I am saying the Father created the son, then the son created the "world". Nothing about self creation here.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood your use of the phrase "began creating himself."

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

Wgw said:
A subjective personal interpretation not backed by Scripture.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood your use of the phrase "began creating himself."

It actually is. Look at the Genesis account. What was there before Jesus began uttering? The earth and water was already there. So how could Jesus have LITERALLY CREATED EVERYTHING if things already existed before he began speaking? So then you have to study the real meaning of the word "world" thats being used. As you research the other usages of the word, you find the exact meaning of "world". Yes, it is my interpretation, but so far my interpretation of scripture has outweighed anything you've said. The only thing you've said this whole time that sorta got me was when you said "begot" relating to conception. And when I looked up the real meaning of the word as they are used in other passages, then it clarified what the text really means. Only child. And my interpretation threw your conception logic out the door. So doing the research on the usages of words is VERY important in studying scripture.

Hoghead1 · Nov 25, 2015

Well, WGW, I have no problem with the notion that God self-creates. I posit creation is god's sown self-evolution into consciousness and actualization. I also posit we all create ourselves, becoming a new person every moment.

cgaviria · Nov 25, 2015

I need to clarify something. By "began creating himself", I didn't mean he created himself. I mean HE HIMSELF BEGAN CREATING.

Wgw · Nov 25, 2015

Hoghead1 said:
Well, WGW, I have no problem with the notion that God self-creates. I posit creation is god's sown self-evolution into consciousness and actualization. I also posit we all create ourselves, becoming a new person every moment.

Indeed, in accordance with process philosophy, presumably, on the basis of reality as a progression of events.

Grafted In · Nov 25, 2015

It's fairly likely I've missed it if it's already been addressed....this is a long, thick thread, but when Scripture says to baptize someone in the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Ghost, was it intended that their names actually be used? If so what are they, other than The Son being Jesus?

That's why I posted the 2 verses about baptism, one being "in the name of Jesus", the other being "in the name if The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Ghost.
And does this help clarify the topic or make the water muddier? Or neither. Just something I've always wondered about.

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