"Non-Salvation" Issues

[abadhaircut]

Okay so I have heard people speak of things that are "non-salvation" issues. I don't understand this. If God took the time to include it in his word then it must be important, right?

2 John 9 says "Whoever goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..."

These are just two examples among many that show the importance of obeying ALL of the commands of Christ. Therefore, every issue is a "salvation" issue. Questions, comments, snide remarks?

 

[Thedictator]

No one said any thing about issues not being important. An issue can be important and not be salvational.

Example: We are told in the Bible to obey the laws of the land. Ok If you run a red light are you lost when you ran that red light?

I will wait for you answer.........

 

[abadhaircut]

I don't think I really made myself clear. I should have specified that I'm talking about things in a worship setting. The way we worship God. If he has told us a certain way to worship him then it stands to reason it must be important. I do like your example about running a red light though. I've done that a couple of times on accident and I would hope it wouldn't affect my eternal salvation.

And you say that an issue can be important but not be salvational, but if it doesn't affect your salvation then is it really that important? What are some things you would consider important but not affecting salvation?

 

[Thedictator]

I think you have a misunderstanding of salvation. You can not earn your salvation by works or doing the right things in worship. Our salvation is by grace ( There is nothing we do or can do to receive salvation outside of grace) Because of Grace we receive salvation through faith without works of law. ( An act of worship is a work of law) This faith is not a dead faith ( belief only James 2) but alive or working faith( a belief faith, a trust faith, repentance faith, a confession faith, a baptism faith.)

Belief, repentance, confession and baptism are all acts or works of trust or faith that God will do what he said he will do, if we do this in faith ( He will save us ) They are not works of law. They are faith.

So we are NOT saved by the law but by grace and faith.

God never said worship me the right way and I will save you.

Are act of worship important? Yes but are not apart of salvation. We can lose blessings and I believe other forms of judgements for wrong worship. Also it can lead to gross error that can harden our hearts and we could walk away from our faith in God and be lost. 1 Timothy 1:1-2 ( but this would take a long time to happen)

You will not lose your salvation from any act of sin. It takes an abondonment of our faith in Christ, not an act of sin.

 

[abadhaircut]

You have an excellent point. I do know that we are not saved by works, but at the same time faith without works is dead. Remember also that Jesus said none can enter the kingdom of God except through him, and that if we love him we will keep his commands. Can someone be saved without having a love for Christ? Can someone love Christ without obeying him? Questions to consider.

 

[jmacvols]

I don't think I really made myself clear. I should have specified that I'm talking about things in a worship setting. The way we worship God. If he has told us a certain way to worship him then it stands to reason it must be important.

Jesus said we are to worship God 'in spirit and in truth'. Jesus also equated God's word to truth, 'thy word is truth'. So we are to worship God according to His word, the truth. How did Paul worship? Rom 1:9 - "For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,". Paul served/worshipped "God", his frame of mind was "in spirit" and his worship was done according to "the gospel".
Not worshipping God as God has said would be 'vain worship', Mt 15:9. Prescribing worship for yourself instead of following God's way is 'will worship', Col 2:22f.

 

[Thedictator]

I agree that we are to worship in spirit and truth, wrong worship is vain worship ( or meaningless ) In the Churches of Christ we do a great job with truth but a poor job in the spirit, I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone say after worship I did not like that song, to many songs, he took to long to pray, why did he preach on that? And on it goes.

Now about faith: Like I said before there are two kinds of faith Dead Faith ( without works ) that can not save and Alive Faith ( a working faith ) that does save.

Now to works there are all kinds of works, but I'm only going to talk about two here. Works of Law ( that can not save ) The 10 commandments, Acts of worship, moral acts, acts of service to God and man. THE LAW OF GOD WILL NOT SAVE. BECAUSE GOD DID NOT MAKE IT TO SAVE. The law is to help us have a better relationship with God. NOT TO SAVE.

Works of Faith ( That Save ) Belief, Trust, Confession, faithfulness, baptism, repentance, love, Hope, and others.

I ask this question where in the Bible did God say worship me 100% right and I will save you? or If you only worship me 99.9% right your lost.

 

[Thedictator]

if we love him we will keep his commands. Can someone be saved without having a love for Christ? Can someone love Christ without obeying him? Questions to consider.

I think I understand what you are saying here. the verse saying if I love Jesus and are Grossly disobeying God then I really don't love. The problem is a lack of love, not obeying the law. Salvation has more to do with God loving me then me loving God.

What this verse is not saying is if a person sins he does not love Christ.

If you want to be saved by obeying Christ's commands you MUST obey 100% of his commands and do it 100% of the time. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

 

[jmacvols]

I ask this question where in the Bible did God say worship me 100% right and I will save you? or If you only worship me 99.9% right your lost.

If God accepts .1% error will He accept 20%, 50%, 99% error? I guess I'm asking how much error does one have to be in to be lost? In James 2:10, James said if a man offends in one point he is guilty of all.

 

[Thedictator]

If God accepts .1% error will He accept 20%, 50%, 99% error?

Are you 100% right on every issue and prefect before God?????

 

[Thedictator]

In James 2:10, James said if a man offends in one point he is guilty of all.

Yes, we ALL are guilty of offending God, and if it is up to us obeying the law of God to be saved then we are ALL lost.

Thank God that salvation is by Grace and not by law.

 

[jmacvols]

Yes, we ALL are guilty of offending God, and if it is up to us obeying the law of God to be saved then we are ALL lost.

Thank God that salvation is by Grace and not by law.

Obviously grace does not exclude law, for if there were no law there would be no such thing as sin, sin being transgression of the law. Paul said he was under law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21. If there was no NT law then there would be nothing to obey, and obedience is what leads to salvation, Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16; Rom 10:9,10, Acts 2:38 etc. Without obedience one could not love the Lord, Jn 14:15.
But the question still remains; how much in error can one be in before he is lost. God's laws 'are not grievous', and when one fails to keep Christ's NT law, Christ has given him the avenue of repentance.

 

[Thedictator]

I agree with you that we are under Christ's law, but we are not save by Christ's law. When we sin there is consequence for our actions. We do need to obey Christ and his laws, but they do not lead to salvation.

Obeying the law is not the same as obeying in faith. Faith is not the same as law. One can obey all of Christ laws and still not be saved. A lost person can walk into a Church of Christ obey all the church rules, worship correctly, be dunked in water and obey Christ laws and still be lost.

We are saved by the obedience of faith in the work of Christ Jesus. Not the obedience of the law Christ gave to the saved. You are struggling with the problem the Jews, Judizers, and Pharisees had with the Teachings of Christ. It's not the law but faith. Again I'm NOT talking about the dead faith of the denominations.

YOU OWN STATEMENT proves that salvation comes not by law but faith. "when one fails to keep Christ's NT law, Christ has given him the avenue of repentance".

Salvation is not about keeping Christ law, but repenting that your a sinner who does not obey Christ law.

 

[jmacvols]

I agree with you that we are under Christ's law, but we are not save by Christ's law. When we sin there is consequence for our actions. We do need to obey Christ and his laws, but they do not lead to salvation.

Obeying the law is not the same as obeying in faith. Faith is not the same as law. One can obey all of Christ laws and still not be saved. A lost person can walk into a Church of Christ obey all the church rules, worship correctly, be dunked in water and obey Christ laws and still be lost.

We are saved by the obedience of faith in the work of Christ Jesus. Not the obedience of the law Christ gave to the saved. You are struggling with the problem the Jews, Judizers, and Pharisees had with the Teachings of Christ. It's not the law but faith. Again I'm NOT talking about the dead faith of the denominations.

YOU OWN STATEMENT proves that salvation comes not by law but faith. "when one fails to keep Christ's NT law, Christ has given him the avenue of repentance".

Salvation is not about keeping Christ law, but repenting that your a sinner who does not obey Christ law.

Of course I disagree. Those that do not keep Christ's law are 'law-breakers', they are being disobedient to Christ. Jesus said 'if ye love Me, keep my commandments' so those that do not keep Christ's law do not love Christ. Paul told Timothy "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.", 1 Tm 4:16. Both the verbs 'heed' and 'continue' are in the imperative mood, Paul is commanding Timothy to keep on taking heed (present tense) to the doctrine (Christ's law) and keep on continuing (present tense) in the doctrine and by doing so Timothy could be saved.

John says "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.", 2 Jn 1:9. So Christ's law/doctrine does save.

You say "Salvation is not about keeping Christ law." John said sin is transgression of the law. If one is not keeping Christ's law he is in transgression and is lost. So keeping Christ's law keeps one out of transgression and from being lost.

You say "Faith is not the same as law." In Mk 1:15 Jesus told His listeners to "believe the gospel". The verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood, we are commanded to have faith, therefore Christ's law commands us to have faith. So having faith is part of Christ's law for if one does not have faith he is transgressing Christ's law and is lost in sin.

Lastly you say "A lost person can walk into a Church of Christ obey all the church rules, worship correctly, be dunked in water and obey Christ laws and still be lost."
I do not know what you mean by 'church rules' but if a lost soul understands the gospel, sincerely understand his lost state and understands his need to repent of his sins, confess with the mouth and be baptized for remission of sins, he then worship correctly, lives faithfully, why would he still be lost?

 

[Thedictator]

"Of course I disagree"
That is OK, some times I disagree with myself. LOL

"Those that do not keep Christ's law are 'law-breakers', they are being disobedient to Christ. Jesus said 'if ye love Me, keep my commandments' so those that do not keep Christ's law do not love Christ."

Yap, you and I both do not truly love Christ because we both do not obey 100% of Christ law 100% of the time. But we are save by his love for us not our love for him.

"Paul told Timothy "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.", 1 Tm 4:16."

Yes one must have the right doctrine for salvation. Doctrine and the law or commands are not the same.

"Paul is commanding Timothy to keep on taking heed (present tense) to the doctrine (Christ's law) and keep on continuing (present tense) in the doctrine and by doing so Timothy could be saved."

Well You added Christ's Law into that verse doctrine and Christ's law are not the same.

John says "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.", 2 Jn 1:9. So Christ's law/doctrine does save.

You say "Salvation is not about keeping Christ law." John said sin is transgression of the law. If one is not keeping Christ's law he is in transgression and is lost. So keeping Christ's law keeps one out of transgression and from being lost.

Taking verses out of context does not work, Christ's doctrine is not the same as Christ's law.

Example of Christ's law: Do not murder, do not lust, help the poor, obey Earthly rulers and other rules.

Example of Christ's Doctrine: God is one, Jesus Christ is Lord, Jesus is the son of God, God made the universe and other truths.

You do not need faith to obey Christ's law but you must have faith to obey Christ doctrine in belief. Yes faith in Christ's doctrine does save but not Christ's law

You say "Faith is not the same as law." In Mk 1:15 Jesus told His listeners to "believe the gospel". The verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood, we are commanded to have faith, therefore Christ's law commands us to have faith. So having faith is part of Christ's law for if one does not have faith he is transgressing Christ's law and is lost in sin.

Not all commands are law, It means that one has authority.

Example: A Policeman can command you to do something like "get on the grown" that has nothing to do with the law.

Again the Gospel of Christ is not the law. It is the Good news.

"Lastly you say "A lost person can walk into a Church of Christ obey all the church rules, worship correctly, be dunked in water and obey Christ laws and still be lost."
I do not know what you mean by 'church rules' but if a lost soul understands the gospel, sincerely understand his lost state and understands his need to repent of his sins, confess with the mouth and be baptized for remission of sins, he then worship correctly, lives faithfully, why would he still be lost?"

Well an Example of Church Rules: Coming to service on Wednesday, and Sunday nights for one.

One can do all that out of fear, not faith ( trust ) in Jesus Christ, and be lost.

Is sound like to me you are trying to be save by your own self righteousness in your
obedience to the law. It sounds just like what a Judizer would say in the First Century Church.

 

[jmacvols]

"Of course I disagree"
That is OK, some times I disagree with myself. LOL

"Those that do not keep Christ's law are 'law-breakers', they are being disobedient to Christ. Jesus said 'if ye love Me, keep my commandments' so those that do not keep Christ's law do not love Christ."

Yap, you and I both do not truly love Christ because we both do not obey 100% of Christ law 100% of the time. But we are save by his love for us not our love for him.

"Paul told Timothy "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.", 1 Tm 4:16."

Yes one must have the right doctrine for salvation. Doctrine and the law or commands are not the same.

"Paul is commanding Timothy to keep on taking heed (present tense) to the doctrine (Christ's law) and keep on continuing (present tense) in the doctrine and by doing so Timothy could be saved."

Well You added Christ's Law into that verse doctrine and Christ's law are not the same.

John says "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.", 2 Jn 1:9. So Christ's law/doctrine does save.

You say "Salvation is not about keeping Christ law." John said sin is transgression of the law. If one is not keeping Christ's law he is in transgression and is lost. So keeping Christ's law keeps one out of transgression and from being lost.

Taking verses out of context does not work, Christ's doctrine is not the same as Christ's law.

Example of Christ's law: Do not murder, do not lust, help the poor, obey Earthly rulers and other rules.

Example of Christ's Doctrine: God is one, Jesus Christ is Lord, Jesus is the son of God, God made the universe and other truths.

You do not need faith to obey Christ's law but you must have faith to obey Christ doctrine in belief. Yes faith in Christ's doctrine does save but not Christ's law

You say "Faith is not the same as law." In Mk 1:15 Jesus told His listeners to "believe the gospel". The verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood, we are commanded to have faith, therefore Christ's law commands us to have faith. So having faith is part of Christ's law for if one does not have faith he is transgressing Christ's law and is lost in sin.

Not all commands are law, It means that one has authority.

Example: A Policeman can command you to do something like "get on the grown" that has nothing to do with the law.

Again the Gospel of Christ is not the law. It is the Good news.

"Lastly you say "A lost person can walk into a Church of Christ obey all the church rules, worship correctly, be dunked in water and obey Christ laws and still be lost."
I do not know what you mean by 'church rules' but if a lost soul understands the gospel, sincerely understand his lost state and understands his need to repent of his sins, confess with the mouth and be baptized for remission of sins, he then worship correctly, lives faithfully, why would he still be lost?"

Well an Example of Church Rules: Coming to service on Wednesday, and Sunday nights for one.

One can do all that out of fear, not faith ( trust ) in Jesus Christ, and be lost.

I see little to no difference between doctrine and law, doctrine may contain law or law may contain doctrine but keeping law/doctrine is necessary to be saved.
John already said if one does not have the doctrine of Christ he does not have God, so this settles the issue about doctrine. Secondly, if there were no law, there would be no sin for John said sin is transgression of the law. Paul said he was under law to Christ. So not keeping law = transgression/sin and sin is the reason people are lost. Jesus said if ye love Me keep my commandments. So one must keep commandments in order to love Christ.

So here we have doctrine, law and commandments all shown to be necessary to salvation: 1)if one has not Christ's doctrine he hath not God. 2) if there was no law then there would be no sin. Since people do sin that means there is a law they are transgressing so not keeping the law means one is transgressing. 3) not keeping Christ's commandments is evidence that one does not love the Lord.

A few more ideas about law:

Rom 8:2 - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Redemption from sin and death comes by law of the spirit.

Gal 6:2 - "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

The verb 'bear' is an imperative, so this command to bear one another's burden is a law of Christ, a command, part of Christ's doctrine. Not obeying this command means one is breaking/transgressing/sinning against Christ's law.

Isa 2:3 - "...for out of Zion shall go forth the law..."
Here the prophet prophecies about the law of Christ.

Jer 31:31,33 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
This covenant is also referred to as law, those that have this law in their hearts are the people of God. If I do not have the law of God in my heart then I am not one of His people.

Is sound like to me you are trying to be save by your own self righteousness in your
obedience to the law. It sounds just like what a Judizer would say in the First Century Church.

I never said one can be saved by doing his own righteousness, to be saved one has to do the righteousness of God.

Psa 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness."

God's commandments then are equivalent to righteousness.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul is telling us Israel is lost for they are "going about to establish their own righteousness", that is, they were doing works of merit. To be saved, Paul said they have to submit (obey) the righteousness of God. We just seen in Psa 119:117 the righteousness of God is equivalent to God's commandments. So Israel is lost for they were doing works of merit (establishing their own righteousness) instead of obeying the commands of God. Paul contrasts two kinds of works in this verse; 1) work of merit and obedience to God's commandments. So we can see that all works are not alike and that while works of merit do not save, obedience to God's commandments do save.

If there were no law for us to follow there would be no such thing as sin and there would be no law for us to obey. Without the Lord's commands(righteousness) to obey there would be no way for us to be righteous. Paul in Rom 6:16 says you can obey only one of two masters: either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

 

[aggie03]

I noticed that the discussion seems to be focused around the way that one might define the phrase "law of Christ" and the different ways that it could be understood. Since it's not really the point of this thread, I've created another thread here.

 

[heapshake]

But the question still remains; how much in error can one be in before he is lost.

As far as worship goes, I'd say a lot. If you are looking for a %, I guess I'd go for 100%, but it's hard for me to believe that someone could be genuinely 100% wrong.

I didn't read this thread before the other "Christ law" thread. This was certainly an interesting discussion.

 

[Windlord]

I don't think I really made myself clear. I should have specified that I'm talking about things in a worship setting. The way we worship God. If he has told us a certain way to worship him then it stands to reason it must be important. I do like your example about running a red light though. I've done that a couple of times on accident and I would hope it wouldn't affect my eternal salvation.

And you say that an issue can be important but not be salvational, but if it doesn't affect your salvation then is it really that important? What are some things you would consider important but not affecting salvation?

Every setting is a worship setting. Including when you are in your car and driving. There should never be a moment when we are not doing what we are doing for the glory of God.