Non-RC views of election of Pope and smoke

Virgil the Roman · Oct 1, 2013

The Pope isn't elected by the laity; but others who are in authority, clergy. The clergy have authority over the laity. We as laity have responsibility not only to obey and pray, but hold the clergy accountable by ensuring that they teach the faith in an orthodox and faithful manner. To paraphrase, I believe Bishop Fulton Sheen, 'It is the laity who will save the Church.' The Papacy is an elective monarchy; not a democracy.

Virgil the Roman · Oct 1, 2013

SilverBlade said:
. . .
The thought of electing a pope kind of goes against that, doesn't it? . . . .

Not so. Men are called by God; trained in seminary. Some are later consecrated after the priesthood to the episcopate. Some priests, deacons, and bishops are nominated and chosen as 'cardinal electors' to choose Bishop of Rome or future Pope. This is similar albeit, not the same as, whenever the early Apostles held council and drew lots to replace the missing seat of the apostle Judas who had apostasised and committed suicide. The men in Authority (the Apostles --- the Clergy) choose with the help of the Holy Ghost a new apostle. Similarly, a new head of the Apostles, the Pope is chosen by a council of clergy and with the prayer and help of the Holy Ghost to choose a worthy candidate.

Sometimes, it is choice the Holy Ghost would wish; others, it might be the person the Holy Ghost permits (but doesn't actively wish more along the lines of passively permitting or tolerating) so as to try the Church with the example of a poor man who will act as God's Chastisement upon the Church for her sins. And at other times, he raises up a great and saintly man to cleanse his church and give her a holy Pope who will clean house and direct the church in a Godly and forthright manner. Hence, one has good and bad popes in the church throughout Ecclesiastical history.

MoreCoffee · Oct 1, 2013

Virgil the Roman said:
The Pope isn't elected by the laity; but others who are in authority, clergy. The clergy have authority over the laity. We as laity have responsibility not only to obey and pray, but hold the clergy accountable by ensuring that they teach the faith in an orthodox and faithful manner. To paraphrase, I believe Bishop Fulton Sheen, 'It is the laity who will save the Church.' The Papacy is an elective monarchy; not a democracy.

In the Protestant Errors and Inventions thread one of the errors of Protestantism (naturally this error applies only to the ones that elect pastors and stuff) is "Representative democracy as church government". It's strange how folk who want to elect their pastors (and whatever else they like to vote about) are all eagerly awaiting a Kingdom where they won't get to vote on anything ...

Virgil the Roman · Oct 1, 2013

Indeed, it does. It allows politics of Classical Liberalism to unduly influence the governance of one's sect or denomination. It is basically the internalising or the imbibing of political ideology and encorporating it as a part of one's sect's beliefs regarding how the state of the church or local congregations ought to be run.

ebia · Oct 2, 2013

Virgil the Roman said:
Indeed, it does. It allows politics of Classical Liberalism to unduly influence the governance of one's sect or denomination. It is basically the internalising or the imbibing of political ideology and encorporating it as a part of one's sect's beliefs regarding how the state of the church or local congregations ought to be run.

There's a certain irony posting this elsewhere then:

I really miss Benedict at this point (and I wouldn't have thought that I'd even say this)! This guy's [Pope Francis] problems are on par with the crappola JPII pulled that scandalised millions.

For someone arguing for the papal system you're remarkable antagonistic to the last half dozen or so Popes (I don't know that I've heard you complain about JPI) and the last ecumenical council.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 2, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
In the Protestant Errors and Inventions thread one of the errors of Protestantism (naturally this error applies only to the ones that elect pastors and stuff) is "Representative democracy as church government".
It's strange how folk who want to elect their pastors (and whatever else they like to vote about) are all eagerly awaiting a Kingdom where they won't get to vote on anything ...

Why would anone care about voting in the new Kingdom

.

MoreCoffee · Oct 2, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Why would anone care about voting in the new Kingdom

Exactly my point. The Church is God's kingdom in germinal form - awaiting its full maturity which will come when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to be the eternal Pope of his eternal Church.

bbbbbbb · Oct 5, 2013

ebia said:
There's a certain irony posting this elsewhere then:

For someone arguing for the papal system you're remarkable antagonistic to the last half dozen or so Popes (I don't know that I've heard you complain about JPI) and the last ecumenical council.

Of course, that is a totally different matter. God has been testing the Catholic Church with Popes that are, at best, inadequate, and, at worst, demonic. Oh, for the Good Old Days when the Catholic Church was ruled by Great Popes such as those Renaissance Popes like Innocent VIII - Pope Innocent VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Albion · Oct 6, 2013

Virgil the Roman said:
Not so. Men are called by God; trained in seminary. Some are later consecrated after the priesthood to the episcopate. Some priests, deacons, and bishops are nominated and chosen as 'cardinal electors' to choose Bishop of Rome or future Pope. This is similar albeit, not the same as, whenever the early Apostles held council and drew lots to replace the missing seat of the apostle Judas who had apostasised and committed suicide. The men in Authority (the Apostles --- the Clergy) choose with the help of the Holy Ghost a new apostle. Similarly, a new head of the Apostles, the Pope is chosen by a council of clergy and with the prayer and help of the Holy Ghost to choose a worthy candidate.

Yes, and we probably could make the choice of the captain of your favorite Little League baseball team into the head of the Apostles if we string together enough analogies. It's a fun mental game, but that's about all.

Rick Otto · Oct 6, 2013

Virgil the Roman said:
The Pope isn't elected by the laity; but others who are in authority, clergy. The clergy have authority over the laity. We as laity have responsibility not only to obey and pray, but hold the clergy accountable by ensuring that they teach the faith in an orthodox and faithful manner. To paraphrase, I believe Bishop Fulton Sheen, 'It is the laity who will save the Church.' The Papacy is an elective monarchy; not a democracy.

Facinating! Would an "elective monarchy" be in the same category as an "appointive democracy"?

Rick Otto · Oct 6, 2013

bbbbbbb said:
Of course, that is a totally different matter. God has been testing the Catholic Church with Popes that are, at best, inadequate, and, at worst, demonic. Oh, for the Good Old Days when the Catholic Church was ruled by Great Popes such as those Renaissance Popes like Innocent VIII - Pope Innocent VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He hasn't spared America, either. There's a demon behind every Bush!

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 6, 2013

Originally Posted by Virgil the Roman

The Pope isn't elected by the laity; but others who are in authority, clergy. The clergy have authority over the laity.

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb

Of course, that is a totally different matter. God has been testing the Catholic Church with Popes that are, at best, inadequate, and, at worst, demonic.

Click to expand...

Rick Otto said:
He hasn't spared America, either.
There's a demon behind every Bush!

I voted for both Bush's......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7597750-4/
Ask a guy who really has no clue.

Originally Posted by durangodawood

I think its highly probable they exist and have visited us. But I've never experienced it.
I certainly wouldnt structure my life around the possibility of aliens existing.

Job 19:15
One sojourning of house of me and maidservants of me.
To alien they are reckoning me, foreign-one I became in eyes of them.
[Psalm 69:8]

.....

.

bbbbbbb · Oct 6, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
I voted for both Bush's......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7597750-4/
Ask a guy who really has no clue.

.....

.

Can anything good come out of Texas? BTW, I voted for both of them myself and met George W. on several occasions. I have a photo of him with myself in my living room - drive my Democratic friends crazy!

Messy · Oct 6, 2013

Pope Francis loves to cook himself

Black smoke?
Yes, that new Argentinian pope is flamegrilling spareribs

MrLuther · Oct 6, 2013

PaladinValer said:
It is a minor tradition, one that is not objected to by Holy Scripture or by Holy Tradition.

While I disagree with the concept of Papacy, I don't see any theological problem, as far as I know, in their way of going about picking their new spiritual leader..

This.
I'd even be willing to accept Rome's Bishop as a Primus inter Pares, for the sake of unity. But I believe that the current ideas about him are against Scripture, and therefore I cannot accept them.

bbbbbbb · Oct 7, 2013

MrLuther said:
This.
I'd even be willing to accept Rome's Bishop as a Primus inter Pares, for the sake of unity. But I believe that the current ideas about him are against Scripture, and therefore I cannot accept them.

Not to mention all the past ideas about him dating at least from the Great Schism.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 10, 2013

Originally Posted by PaladinValer

It is a minor tradition, one that is not objected to by Holy Scripture or by Holy Tradition.

While I disagree with the concept of Papacy, I don't see any theological problem, as far as I know, in their way of going about picking their new spiritual leader..

Me neither....

MrLuther said:
This.
I'd even be willing to accept Rome's Bishop as a Primus inter Pares, for the sake of unity.
But I believe that the current ideas about him are against Scripture, and therefore I cannot accept them.

What kind of ideas?

.

MoreCoffee · Dec 10, 2013

Another resurrection? LLoJ ....

LittleLambofJesus · May 15, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
Another resurrection? LLoJ ....

Ummm, I am not sure if the question of the OP has been adequately answered.
But, I will look back and see

.

Rick Otto · May 16, 2014

bbbbbbb said:
Can anything good come out of Texas? BTW, I voted for both of them myself and met George W. on several occasions. I have a photo of him with myself in my living room - drive my Democratic friends crazy!

I have a picture of his grandpa & the Nazi arms manufacturing plant he funded. Drives my right-wing Republican friends nuts.

Non-RC views of election of Pope and smoke

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