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Non-overlapping magisteria

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Science:

Science is an activity designed to justify truth claims about the behaviour, past and probable future of the observed material world. The nature of these truth claims is such that one has a right to expect others to accept them, because they are based on observable evidence and solid procedure. Science tries to answer empirical questions and that is all it does.

Philosophy:

Philosophy is an activity designed to assist critical thinking by exposing inconsistencies within belief systems and between truth claims. It attempts to support its claims with some sort of argument. The nature of these truth claims are such that if one accepts the premises of the argument then one is also obliged to accept the conclusion (assuming the argument is valid). Philosophy does not make empirical claims.

Religion:

Religion makes truth claims based on revelation, personal experience, faith or religious scripture. As such, it has no right at all to expect non-believers to accept the truth claim. But it is also the case that if no attempt is made to impose those beliefs on other people and there is no contradiction between the religious claim and any relevant philosophical or scientific truth claim, that there is no reason to ask or expect the believer to renounce his belief. It is his human right to be allowed to believe whatever he wants in those circumstances.

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The above are three descriptions of human activities in terms of human language. In other words, science, religion and philosophy are all trying to make some sort of claim (which one assumes isn't an intentional lie, so it's a truth claim of sorts) but that they can be distinguished by examining the type of justification being given. What I want to know is whether these definitions, and the fact that they don't allow any overlap, is acceptable or non-acceptable to people on this board.

I should add that something like young-earth creationism doesn't fall under any of the above categories because it's claims are actually motivated by religious scripture but present themselves as being motivated by science (i.e. it's pseudoscience). The whole of religion ends up being an attempt to describe what is in fact beyond description, although since it is arguable that science can't even attempt to do this and philosophy can only do it in such a way that it is incomprehensible to the man-on-the-street, there is still a legitimate role for religion - as philosophy for the masses.

My motivation for the above argument is a defence of the claim that science and religion have no legitimate dispute because they are (or should be) trying to do different things in different ways. It's an attempt to play be the UN in the ideological war between hardline scientistic people who want to see religion completely eradicated and fundamentalist religious people who fail to show the proper respect for scientifically-established empirical facts.

All comments/discussion welcome.

Geoff
 

TeddyKGB

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I am reluctant to agree that religion claims a valid philosophical niche because I am not persuaded that the questions religion claims to answer actually have answers at all. Religion posits a way of knowing - and a set of purportedly knowable things - for which the religion's claims themselves are the only source of information.
 
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I am reluctant to agree that religion claims a valid philosophical niche because I am not persuaded that the questions religion claims to answer actually have answers at all. Religion posits a way of knowing - and a set of purportedly knowable things - for which the religion's claims themselves are the only source of information.

I would say that all religions claim that there is an additional source of information - direct personal experience. This is as much true of eastern religions like Buddhism as it is of western theism. "Seek and ye shall find...." All non-analytical philosophy is also dependent on this additional information source. It goes all the way to Wittgenstein claiming "whereof I cannot speak, thereof I shall remain silent" but also claiming there were things which could be shown but not said.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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They overlap in that they are all capable of positing answers to the same phenomena (even if they are non-answers such as "I don't know", or "Goddidit"). More generally, any question religion attempts to answer can always be put under scientific scrutiny, but the opposite is not necessarily true. For instance, the notion of the afterlife can be addressed from a scientific standpoint, but the religious mindset is not equipped to handle, say, complex analysis or quantum mechanics.
 
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They overlap in that they are all capable of positing answers to the same phenomena (even if they are non-answers such as "I don't know", or "Goddidit").

They may posit answers about the same phenomena, but they justify their answers in different ways. Science justifies its answers in terms of empirical evidence. Religion justifies its answers in terms of scripture and personal experience. Provided you accept this difference and that an empirical-sounding claim coming from religion cannot be taken literally, THEN there is no overlap.

More generally, any question religion attempts to answer can always be put under scientific scrutiny, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

You reckon you can scrutinise ethical claims with science?

For instance, the notion of the afterlife can be addressed from a scientific standpoint...

Can it? How?

, but the religious mindset is not equipped to handle, say, complex analysis or quantum mechanics.

So a person who is religious is incapable of understanding science?

Even if they were scientific-minded long before they found religion?
 
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talkingmonkey

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Would you go so far as to say that young earth creationists have, in fact, created a sub-magisteria to the above three claims (science and religion mainly)?

Even though they cannot overlap legitimately, the YEC have taken it upon themselves to disguise religious scripture as researched science in the hope to infiltrate the science sector.

Perhaps similar to the science-fiction cult of Scientology?
 
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Would you go so far as to say that young earth creationists have, in fact, created a sub-magisteria to the above three claims (science and religion mainly)?

They didn't create it, but yes it's a different category - pseudoscience. It's dressed up to look like science (because the claims are in terms of the material world) but actually it is motivated by religious beliefs.


Perhaps similar to the science-fiction cult of Scientology?

I'm not sure how to class scientology. Since it's founder openly admitted he was going to start a money-making cult, I'd be tempted to just categorise it as "illegal activities" and ban it. I don't see how it is any different to any other kind of confidence trick designed to part vulnerable people from their money.
 
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TeddyKGB

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I would say that all religions claim that there is an additional source of information - direct personal experience. This is as much true of eastern religions like Buddhism as it is of western theism. "Seek and ye shall find...." All non-analytical philosophy is also dependent on this additional information source. It goes all the way to Wittgenstein claiming "whereof I cannot speak, thereof I shall remain silent" but also claiming there were things which could be shown but not said.
My point is that by labeling religion's sphere a magisterium in the first place I am implicitly giving it an epistemological status equal to reason and empiricism. I don't think it deserves that.
 
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My point is that by labeling religion's sphere a magisterium in the first place I am implicitly giving it an epistemological status equal to reason and empiricism. I don't think it deserves that.

I don't agree that by recognising different magisteria that you implicitly give them equal epistemological status. They are all different. Science isn't the same as philosophy and religion is different again. The reason they are all different is that they all depend on different methods of justifying their claims. In the case of religion, the justification is such that it is never going to be "objective".
 
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TeddyKGB

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I don't agree that by recognising different magisteria that you implicitly give them equal epistemological status. They are all different. Science isn't the same as philosophy and religion is different again. The reason they are all different is that they all depend on different methods of justifying their claims. In the case of religion, the justification is such that it is never going to be "objective".
What, then, is a "magisterium" if both religion and science are examples?
 
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What, then, is a "magisterium" if both religion and science are examples?

They are different types of communication with different sets of rules and assumptions. They are what Wittgenstein called "language games".
 
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TeddyKGB

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They are different types of communication with different sets of rules and assumptions. They are what Wittgenstein called "language games".
That is not, however, what Gould meant. He quite clearly ceded the categories of meaning and morality to religion.
 
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TeddyKGB

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I'd be tempted to agree with him. Science has little (if anything at all) to say about meaning or morality.
Science is simply a method; there is no a priori reason why empiricism and induction can't tell us at least something about meaning - namely, whether it exists in the ultimate sense.

Religion, however, is decidedly unworthy of the title of head arbiter of meaning and morality.
 
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Science is simply a method; there is no a priori reason why empiricism and induction can't tell us at least something about meaning - namely, whether it exists in the ultimate sense.

I don't agree with that. I see no way that science can shed any light on that issue.

Religion, however, is decidedly unworthy of the title of head arbiter of meaning and morality.

It's not head arbiter. It can't ignore philosophy.
 
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