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Non-exclusionary "geologic evidences for the flood" thread

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troodon

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A critique of AiG's Geologic Evidences for the Genesis Flood article by an actual geologist.​

Evidence #1—Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents.

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.

The reason why we see strata containing marine fossils in areas far from the sea is because the earth's crust is constantly in motion due to plate tectonics. This motion drags overlying rocks along with it as it goes. The places where you see the most movement are along mid-ocean ridges which push rocks outward:

midridge.jpg


This movement is measurable, an undisputed fact.

As these rocks move closer to the shoreline they collect sediment on top of them from turbidic and other clastic flows. Within this sediment are the remains of oceanic organisms of the sort you find fossilized on top of continents. This sediment is then pushed up on top of the continent in the region of the forearc basin. This is, to my knowledge, the primary mechanism for depositing marine sediments on top of a continent. In the case of AiG's examples, the Grand Canyon and the Himilayas, both experienced major uplift which the created huge disparagement we see in their altitude and sea level.

AiG's hypothesis, that these layers were deposited during the great Flood of Genesis, should seem very inadequate to anyone with the smallest amount of geologic training.

Firstly, if you mix up a bunch of sediment (as happens in a flood) you're going to see a great deal of sorting. The larger, heavier sediment will be the first to fall out of solution while the finer, mud particles will be the very last to be deposited. You can test that out at home by taking a whole bunch of sand and rocks and mixing it up in a big tub. This is absolutely not what we see in the Grand Canyon where we see intermittant layers of mudstone (very fine), sandstone (coarse), limestone (a chemical sediment), and even basaltic lava (I would love to hear how AiG explains that). This geology, on this scale, absolutely cannot be explained by a single flood event.

Secondly, deposited sediment needs to come from somewhere. There is a heck of a lot of sediment in these regions, and if they're going to say they're all deposited in a single event I would love to hear where they theorize the sediment would have come from. They suggest it would have come from somewhere to the Northeast, but I'm not aware of any great sandy deserts in the American mid-west or anywhere in eastern Canada. The only other answer I can think of is this sediment was pushed up from the deep sea by the "fountains of the great deep". This is a poor explanation, since you don't actually find much sediment on the ocean bottom very far from shore.

Sand simply isn't small enough to remain suspended for long enough to reach this far from land, and so in the deep sea you primarily see the deposition of muds or chemicals sediments. Therefore, this explanation would require that God created the earth with a large amount sand covering the deep sea. God would had to have done this knowing full well not only that such a covering would not come about naturally but also knowing that this sandy covering would not last very long since the expansion of the sea floor by the mid ocean ridges would eventually clear it all to the shores of the continents.

Evidence #2—Rapid burial of plants and animals.

We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.

I can't speak to their example of the Redwall but catastrophic occurances are a common phenomenon on the planet, especially when we look at a geologic scale (billions of years). These events, such as floods or large ash falls, are going to create a large concentration of fossilized material. The mere existance of such fossil beds around the world is consistent with a global flood, just as it is consistent with countless separate events occuring over the span of 3.9 billion years.

One thing that should be mentioned here, however, is how inconsistent the contents of these many fossil beds is with a single, global flood. Using AiG's example of the Redwall in the Grand Canyon, why are the remains here limited to oceanic organisms (specifically nautiloids)? Aren't they claiming that these were deposited on land? Why are there no land or modern marine organisms found in this strata if everything is being jumbled up by the flood? Why was such a huge concentration of nautiloids dragged so far inland?

Evidence #3—Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas.

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.

I can't find any information to corroborate these claims, so if anyone can provide me with additional information I'd appreciate it. I can picture something such as the Redwall being deposited along the length of the American west coast, but I cannot find information on this specific formation being located on other coasts. The same is true of the English chalk beds.

A formation is only going to be deposited along an area in which the source of the deposition, the rate of deposition, and the depositional environment are all relatively similar. AiG's claim that all of these were so consistent across the entire planet for the duration of the flood seems unlikely.

Evidence #4—Sediment transported long distances.

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for “300 million years” water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global flood.

The existance of sediments in places where there is no nearby source is evidence of nothing more than sediment transport. It's what fluid does, it transports sediment.... however, AiG may be confused as to what fluid is responsible for the Coconino which wikipedia claims to be eolian (wind deposited) and cites McKee, E.D., 1979.

I cannot find a source for AiG's second claim regarding current directions being consistent for 300 million years across the Americas. It would be nice if they sourced this stuff. I suppose they are, therefore, claiming that the "fountains of the great deep" were located some place northeast of the Americas.

Evidence #5—Rapid or no erosion between strata.

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.

'Rapid or no erosion' is an odd phrase, it's like saying you found evidence of 'rapid or no eating' on a sandwich. I assume that 'rapid' is a poorly chosen word and that they meant 'short-lived' or something along those lines.

It's easy to find examples of rock units which show little or no erosion between them, just like it's easy to find rock units with huge amounts of erosion, representing tens of millions of years or more, separating them. I've seen them myself, in person, countless times. The existence of uninterrupted sequences of strata is evidence of constant deposition and does not tell us how fast it was or if it was across the entire planet.

This is a picture from the Grand Canyon:

CreationismGCunconformity.jpg


Look very carefully at this picture as I talk you through it. The main thing you see is a bunch of sedimentary layers of different colors all kind of tilted as you look at them on the canyon wall. Now look at the very top of the canyon wall, you see that big white layer? You see the bottom of that white layer, how it truncates all of the tilted layers at an angle? This is called an angular unconformity and this is exactly the sort of thing AiG is saying we don't see in the Grand Canyon.

Now, what does this represent? Let me explain it. Historically speaking, the first thing that happened is all of those tilted layers were deposited, and when they were deposited they were laid down horizontally. That's how sediment accumulates, in horizontal layers. Eventually they lithified and became what's known as a structural block. This giant block of sedimentary rock was then tilted as a unit until it was approximately in the orientation we now see it.

After this happened time passed, and as time passed erosion took its toll on the rocks. Look at where all of those sedimentary layers get truncated by the white, you see how that top is relatively horizontal? It's horizontal because erosion was wearing down on those rocks, filing them down slowly over time. Eventually the environment changed to a depositional one, and that upper white layer was laid down. That is why we see the white layer intersecting the tilted layers, because lots of time and lots of activity separate the deposition of the tilted layers and the deposition of the white layer.

Evidence #6—Many strata laid down in rapid succession.

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over “480 million years,” while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.

Rocks can fold even when cold and lithified in the upper crust, provided the pressures on them act on a long enough time scale to create ductile movement. All matter is fluid to some degree, you just have to exert force on it at the right temporal scale to get it to bend rather than break... it's like silly puddy, if you strike it you'll see it break but if you twist it more slowly you'll see it bend.

Rocks can also be made more ductile, and therefore more likely to bend than break when subjected to force, if buried deeply. This places them under more drastic levels of heat which make the rock more malleable - this is often seen in a subduction zone where rocks being pushed towards the continent are often dragged deep before breaking off onto the continent.

As to the specific instance AiG mentions I can't say much because, as is often the case with creationist groups, they mention pieces of evidence without showing them. I would need to see the fold in question as well as the rocks above and below it before I could even begin to explain it.
 

juvenissun

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A critique of AiG's Geologic Evidences for the Genesis Flood article by an actual geologist.​

AiG's hypothesis, that these layers were deposited during the great Flood of Genesis, should seem very inadequate to anyone with the smallest amount of geologic training.

Firstly, if ...

Not a bad exercise in general geology. However, the basic problem is in fact, outside your argument. The key question to me is: what is the nature of time. I don't think we are able to answer this question at this time. It is not in the domain of Geology.
 
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troodon

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The key question to me is: what is the nature of time. I don't think we are able to answer this question at this time. It is not in the domain of Geology.

I'm sorry but could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're asking.
 
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juvenissun

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I'm sorry but could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're asking.
The Genesis Flood is NOT a simple flood problem. It is a tectonic problem. So, it is out of the scope of sedimentology.

It is not only a tectonic problem, it could be an "early earth" tectonic problem. So the tectonics could be entirely different from what it is now.

So, here comes the TIME problem. If this problem can be solved, then the myth of Genesis Flood is solved.
 
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Molal

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The Genesis Flood is NOT a simple flood problem. It is a tectonic problem. So, it is out of the scope of sedimentology.

It is not only a tectonic problem, it could be an "early earth" tectonic problem. So the tectonics could be entirely different from what it is now.

So, here comes the TIME problem. If this problem can be solved, then the myth of Genesis Flood is solved.
I think you are splitting hairs here Juv. The realm of tectonics includes sedimentology (facies analysis, etc.). Tectonics impacts sedimentological rates, environments, and using sedimentology one can track tectonic influences (such as rates, orogenies).

I do not understand what you mean by early earth - please elaborate your assertion. How do you know early earth tectonics were different to today? Obviously the answer to this relies heavily on your answer to the first question.

Time really defies definition. I recommend you read this:

[SIZE=-1]www.sciencepub.net/0101/01-ma.pdf

and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_space_and_time

The definition of time will not affect tectonic processes.
[/SIZE]
 
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troodon

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I just stumbled across the most wonderful thing in a thread in the main CreEvo forum. It serves as a wonderful response to this question:

AiG said:
Evidence #5—Rapid or no erosion between strata.

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.

This is a picture from the Grand Canyon:

CreationismGCunconformity.jpg


Look very carefully at this picture as I talk you through it. The main thing you see is a bunch of sedimentary layers of different colors all kind of tilted as you look at them on the canyon wall. Now look at the very top of the canyon wall, you see that big white layer? You see the bottom of that white layer, how it truncates all of the tilted layers at an angle? This is called an angular unconformity and this is exactly the sort of thing AiG is saying we don't see in the Grand Canyon.

Now, what does this represent? Let me explain it. Historically speaking, the first thing that happened is all of those tilted layers were deposited, and when they were deposited they were laid down horizontally. That's how sediment accumulates, in horizontal layers. Eventually they lithified and became what's known as a structural block. This giant block of sedimentary rock was then tilted as a unit until it was approximately in the orientation we now see it.

After this happened time passed, and as time passed erosion took its toll on the rocks. Look at where all of those sedimentary layers get truncated by the white, you see how that top is relatively horizontal? It's horizontal because erosion was wearing down on those rocks, filing them down slowly over time. Eventually the environment changed to a depositional one, and that upper white layer was laid down. That is why we see the white layer intersecting the tilted layers, because lots of time and lots of activity separate the deposition of the tilted layers and the deposition of the white layer.

YES! I'm so lucky to have found that picture.
 
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juvenissun

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I just stumbled across the most wonderful thing in a thread in the main CreEvo forum. It serves as a wonderful response to this question:

What would you say if I suggested that cross bedding is a miniature unconformity and can be made without a time hiatus? The unconformity seen in the Grand Canyon could just be one big cross bedding made by a giant flood.
 
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birdan

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What would you say if I suggested that cross bedding is a miniature unconformity and can be made without a time hiatus? The unconformity seen in the Grand Canyon could just be one big cross bedding made by a giant flood.
If the unconformity is a cross bedding, how do you explain it being formed by the flood at the same time the flood was carving out the canyon via erosion? Why are there no ripple patterns in this layer if it is a cross bedding?
 
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juvenissun

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If the unconformity is a cross bedding, how do you explain it being formed by the flood at the same time the flood was carving out the canyon via erosion? Why are there no ripple patterns in this layer if it is a cross bedding?
Both depositional and erosional features can be found in the same formation, but separated by time.

The feature of cross bedding does not need any associated ripple marks.
 
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Molal

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What would you say if I suggested that cross bedding is a miniature unconformity and can be made without a time hiatus? The unconformity seen in the Grand Canyon could just be one big cross bedding made by a giant flood.
I would like to see your evidence.

So, pony up - where is it?

But, you can short circuit your reply and admit there is none. Cross bedding is a function of sedimentary structures (sedimentary environment) within the bed. They also imply ripple marks, etc. Why you state cross bedding need no associated ripple marks is a ludicrous statement.
 
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juvenissun

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I would like to see your evidence.

So, pony up - where is it?

But, you can short circuit your reply and admit there is none. Cross bedding is a function of sedimentary structures (sedimentary environment) within the bed. They also imply ripple marks, etc. Why you state cross bedding need no associated ripple marks is a ludicrous statement.
If you dare to say this to your sedimentology teacher, watch your grade.
 
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troodon

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I'm glad this has actually spawned a discussion, it's a good excuse for keeping it up top :) Here is a higher resolution picture of the one in question, if anyone wants a closer look.

The unconformity seen in the Grand Canyon could just be one big cross bedding made by a giant flood.

Theoretically speaking, cross bedding would be roughly consistent with the global flood hypothesis. As waters are rising in the vicinity of the future Grand Canyon there is going to be a large amount of turbulence which could result in currents and, with them, current structures. Then, as the water gets deeper, the currents wax until they cease to exist at which point we would see horizontal bedding. In the abstract, it works.

That said, this can't be a cross bedding and the lithology tells us that. I got the picture of the unconformity from this webpage which describes it as a picture of the 'Great Unconformity' looking north from Moran Point, this is confirmed by the USGS page that the picture comes from. The horizontal white layer is the Tapeats Sandstone and the bottom, tilted layers are part of the Grand Canyon Supergroup.

What's important are the substituant layers of the older Supergroup.

gc_layer.gif


Within the tilted layers are not just clastic sedimentary units, which could conceivably have been deposited as cross bedding, but there are also tilted limestone and basaltic lava layers which would not be formed in such a manner. The only way all of these layers of varied composition could be tilted like this is by invoking tectonics.

Also, as I said previously in the thread, we don't see the sort of sorting the global flood would necessitate. If there's a bunch of currents depositing cross bedding (especially on this sort of scale) we should only see relatively large-grained sediments; shale and limestone shouldn't be in these tilted layers. Also, once the currents subside due to the depth of the water, we should see sorting. We don't, we see jumbled up layers of sandstones, shales, and carbonates. This is the sort of pattern we'd expect to see from regressing and transgressing shorelines, not from the immediate aftermath of a flood.
 
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Molal

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If you dare to say this to your sedimentology teacher, watch your grade.
I have taught sedimentology and structural geology at the university level (masters and Ph.D level) for some years.

You did not provide any evidence.........It is very important to provide evidence for your assertions.

Also, please read troodon's post carefully. It is well written and highly informative.
 
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juvenissun

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I would like to see your evidence.

So, pony up - where is it?

But, you can short circuit your reply and admit there is none. Cross bedding is a function of sedimentary structures (sedimentary environment) within the bed. They also imply ripple marks, etc. Why you state cross bedding need no associated ripple marks is a ludicrous statement.
Alright. You have taught sedimentology.

So, why should ripple mark have to be associated with cross bedding? I do not believe you would insist that. They are made by two different mechanisms, and in most cases, only one exists at a time.

In addition, to focus on this issue is a wrong argument to defend the OP.
 
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juvenissun

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The only way all of these layers of varied composition could be tilted like this is by invoking tectonics.

Why couldn't the surface be the originally tilted surface? Turbiditic deposit does not have to be horizontal to start with.
 
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juvenissun

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Also, please read troodon's post carefully. It is well written and highly informative.

I agree. That is why I said he is doing a good exercise. He should show his posts to his instructor and get some extra credit. I am just picking on him.
 
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Molal

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I agree. That is why I said he is doing a good exercise. He should show his posts to his instructor and get some extra credit. I am just picking on him.
I see - I am sure troodon will take it in all good fun.

I understand that you brought up ripple marks (at least somebody did), I merely injected the fact that cross-bedding and ripple marks are synonymous.

But, ripples are not the only thing that create cross bedding. Here is a webpage of different types of cross bedding.

Also, turbidites exhibit specific sedimentary structures. These structures can be observed on the northern coast of Devon and Cornwall in the United Kingdom. These deposits are wedge shaped over the length and are well sorted dependent upon distance from the source of the material. They are relatively easy to identify in the field.

I recommend you perform a google search for a bouma sequence. This will aid you in your discovery of the nature of turbidites.
 
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juvenissun

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I see - I am sure troodon will take it in all good fun.

I understand that you brought up ripple marks (at least somebody did), I merely injected the fact that cross-bedding and ripple marks are synonymous.

But, ripples are not the only thing that create cross bedding. Here is a webpage of different types of cross bedding.

Also, turbidites exhibit specific sedimentary structures. These structures can be observed on the northern coast of Devon and Cornwall in the United Kingdom. These deposits are wedge shaped over the length and are well sorted dependent upon distance from the source of the material. They are relatively easy to identify in the field.

I recommend you perform a google search for a bouma sequence. This will aid you in your discovery of the nature of turbidites.
How do you know the Grand Canyon Series do have have characters of turbidite? Remember this one should be huge. So we may not be able to see turbidite structure made by small slumps.
 
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Molal

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How do you know the Grand Canyon Series do have have characters of turbidite? Remember this one should be huge. So we may not be able to see turbidite structure made by small slumps.
The grand canyon does not have features of a turbidite. An analysis of the sedimentary structures provides evidence for it's depositional environment.

Here is yet another webpage that firmly refutes the idea that the grand canyon deposits are turbidites.


Therefore, to answer your question, the grand canyon does NOT have "characters of turbidite".

EDIT: If you read about bouma sequences, you will understand why the grand canyon is not a turbidite sequence. In fact, it would be a good idea for you to read about the facies at the grand canyon and about bouma sequences and then write, in your own words, why the facies in the grand canyon cannot be turbidites. We will make a geologist out of you yet!
 
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juvenissun

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The grand canyon does not have features of a turbidite. An analysis of the sedimentary structures provides evidence for it's depositional environment.

Here is yet another webpage that firmly refutes the idea that the grand canyon deposits are turbidites.


Therefore, to answer your question, the grand canyon does NOT have "characters of turbidite".

EDIT: If you read about bouma sequences, you will understand why the grand canyon is not a turbidite sequence. In fact, it would be a good idea for you to read about the facies at the grand canyon and about bouma sequences and then write, in your own words, why the facies in the grand canyon cannot be turbidites. We will make a geologist out of you yet!
You did not address my question on the nature of the Genesis Flood.

If we ASSUME there were a flood like the Genesis Flood, then what kind of turbidite we expect to see? Whatever it looks like, I don't think a "classical" sedimentologist would be able to identify it easily. For example, could the grain size only changes from coarse sand to median sand in a sandstone formation? Would you call that a turbidite bed? Could that be a turbidite bed made in a super size flood?
 
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