• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Non-denominational, here

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lovesherald

Veteran
Dec 21, 2004
991
65
✟24,050.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Republican
I am curious to see why Catholic people pray to Mary to get to Christ, why can't you yourselves talk to Christ? The Bible says that Christ is the intercessor. So do you all believe that you need an intercessor to get to the intercessor? If so, where does the pattern end?

I respect Mary because I know God chose her out of everyone on earth to conceive Jesus. What a blessing! I know Mary is blessed. The Bible says so. I also know that Saints are very holy men, but they are men. So, if you in fact pray to saints, where in the Bible does it say this is acceptable?
 

Alexis OCA

Secrecy and Accountability Cannot Co-Exist
Sep 22, 2004
1,869
83
✟2,466.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic theology on understanding Mary is fairly well-developed, but not complicated. I posted this in another thread but you may want to start here:

[font=Arial,Helvetica]TO THE DISCIPLE HE SAID, BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Pope John Paul II[/font]

With these words Jesus gave the Blessed Virgin Mary a new mission and established a special relationship of love between her and all the disciples
"The universal motherhood of Mary, the 'Woman' of the wedding at Cana and of Calvary, recalls Eve, 'mother of all living' (Gn 3:20). However, while the latter helped to bring sin into the world, the new Eve, Mary, co-operates in the saving event of Redemption. Thus in the Blessed Virgin the figure of ‘woman' is rehabilitated", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 23 April, as he continued his catechesis on the Virgin Mary, focusing this week on her universal motherhood. Here is a translation of his reflection, which was the 49th in the series on the Blessed Mother and was given in Italian.


1. After recalling the presence of Mary and the other women at the Lord's cross, St John relates: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!'. Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!’" (Jn 19:26-27).

These particularly moving words are a "revelation scene": they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.

Interpreted at times as no more than an expression of Jesus' filial piety towards his Mother whom he entrusts for the future to his beloved disciple, these words go far beyond the contingent need to solve a family problem. In fact, attentive consideration of the text, confirmed by the interpretation of many Fathers and by common ecclesial opinion, presents us, in Jesus' twofold entrustment, with one of the most important events for understanding the Virgin's role in the economy of salvation.

Jesus completes his sacrifice by entrusting Mary to John

The words of the dying Jesus actually show that his first intention was not to entrust his Mother to John, but to entrust the disciple to Mary and to give her a new maternal role. Moreover, the epithet "woman", also used by Jesus at the wedding in Cana to lead Mary to a new dimension of her existence as Mother, shows how the Saviour's words are not the fruit of a simple sentiment of filial affection but are meant to be put at a higher level.

2. Although Jesus' death causes Mary deep sorrow, it does not in itself change her normal way of life: in fact, in departing from Nazareth to start his public life, Jesus had already left his Mother alone. Moreover, the presence at the Cross of her relative, Mary of Clopas, allows us to suppose that the Blessed Virgin was on good terms with her family and relatives, by whom she could have been welcomed after her Son's death.

Instead, Jesus' words acquire their most authentic meaning in the context of his saving mission. Spoken at the moment of the redemptive sacrifice, they draw their loftiest value precisely from this sublime circumstance. In fact, after Jesus' statements to his Mother, the Evangelist adds a significant clause: "Jesus, knowing that all was now finished...." (Jn 19:28), as if he wished to stress that he had brought his sacrifice to completion by entrusting his Mother to John, and in him to all men, whose Mother she becomes in the work of salvation.

3. The reality brought about by Jesus' words, that is, Mary's new motherhood in relation to the disciple, is a further sign of the great love that led Jesus to offer his life for all people. On Calvary this love is shown in the gift of a mother, his mother, who thus becomes our mother too.

We must remember that, according to tradition, it is John whom the Blessed Virgin in fact recognized as her son; but this privilege has been interpreted by Christians from the beginning as the sign of a spiritual generation in relation to all humanity.

The universal motherhood of Mary, the "Woman" of the wedding at Cana and of Calvary, recalls Eve, "mother of all living" (Gn 3:20). However, while the latter helped to bring sin into the world, the new Eve, Mary, co-operates in the saving event of Redemption. Thus in the Blessed Virgin the figure of "woman" is rehabilitated and her motherhood takes up the task of spreading the new life in Christ among men.

In view of this mission, the Mother is asked to make the acutely painful sacrifice of accepting her only Son's death. Jesus' words: "Woman, behold your son" enable Mary to sense the new maternal relationship which was to extend and broaden the preceding one. Her "yes" to this plan is therefore an assent to Christ's sacrifice, which she generously accepts by complying with the divine will. Even if in God's plan Mary's motherhood was destined from the start to extend to all humanity, only on Calvary, by virtue of Christ's sacrifice, is its universal dimension revealed.

Mary becomes the Mother of all disciples

Jesus' words, "Behold, your son", effect what they express, making Mary the mother of John and of all the disciples destined to receive the gift of divine grace.

4. On the Cross Jesus did not proclaim Mary's universal motherhood formally, but established a concrete maternal relationship between her and the beloved disciple. In the Lord's choice we can see his concern that this motherhood should not be interpreted in a vague way, but should point to Mary's intense, personal relationship with individual Christians.

May each one of us, precisely through the concrete reality of Mary's universal motherhood, fully acknowledge her as our own Mother, and trustingly commend ourselves to her maternal love.

Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
30 April 1997, page 11
 
Upvote 0

Carrye

Weisenheimer
Aug 30, 2003
14,064
731
✟44,202.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Lovesherald said:
I am curious to see why Catholic people pray to Mary to get to Christ, why can't you yourselves talk to Christ?

It's not that we pray to Mary to "get to Christ". I pray to Our Lord all the time. But I would ask Mary's intercession (ask Mary to pray for me) the same as I would ask for yours. Does it mean that my prayer to Jesus is ineffective? Of course not! But hey, it can't hurt to be persistent, or to have a prayer team praying for you.

The Bible says that Christ is the intercessor. So do you all believe that you need an intercessor to get to the intercessor? If so, where does the pattern end?

Christ interceeds with the Father; others interceed with Christ. We are part of those "others", as are the Saints. Honestly, there's no 'pattern', but since we are all One Body, we are all interrelated, and all share in intercession, though in different ways.

I respect Mary because I know God chose her out of everyone on earth to conceive Jesus. What a blessing! I know Mary is blessed. The Bible says so. I also know that Saints are very holy men, but they are men. So, if you in fact pray to saints, where in the Bible does it say this is acceptable?

Any place the Bible speaks of praying for one another. The Saints are our brothers and sisters in Heaven - they are alive, not dead - and they can intercede for us. It's not about worship, it's about family.
 
Upvote 0

Lovesherald

Veteran
Dec 21, 2004
991
65
✟24,050.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Republican
I've always understood that cross scene as Jesus wanting to take care of His mother, like many other sons would do, holy or not. Like, "If I die, I want you to remarry" or "Please be my children's godparents" etc. I believe we can have a relationship with Mary in that we are thankful she didn't refuse to bear Christ, but it seems like all the rituals (prayer to people other than Christ, confession, rosary, probably other things I don't know about, seem to be religion and not about having a relationship with Christ. Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that? So many other people seem to get in the way.

I'm not trying to be rude so I'm sorry if it sounds that way.
 
Upvote 0

Alexis OCA

Secrecy and Accountability Cannot Co-Exist
Sep 22, 2004
1,869
83
✟2,466.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Lovesherald said:
I've always understood that cross scene as Jesus wanting to take care of His mother, like many other sons would do, holy or not. Like, "If I die, I want you to remarry" or "Please be my children's godparents" etc. I believe we can have a relationship with Mary in that we are thankful she didn't refuse to bear Christ, but it seems like all the rituals (prayer to people other than Christ, confession, rosary, probably other things I don't know about, seem to be religion and not about having a relationship with Christ. Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that? So many other people seem to get in the way.

I'm not trying to be rude so I'm sorry if it sounds that way.

No problem. I can't add much more to what the Holy Father has written. However I would re-read the use of the word "WOMAN"....notice Jesus does not say "MOTHER behold thy son"....he uses the word WOMAN...for a reason.
 
Upvote 0

marciadietrich

Senior Veteran
Dec 5, 2002
4,385
296
62
Visit site
✟28,560.00
Faith
Catholic
Catholicism is very family oriented. Also much more taking a palpable or real view of the body of Christ ... Christ is our head, and we are his body and we are all connected together (as Paul states in speaking of the various parts of the body having various duties and we should not despise our feet or our hands because they are all part of the one body.

It is very much about having a real relationship with Christ as a part of his body with the rest of his body whether they are here on earth or in purgatory awaiting heaven, or in heaven and perfected with and in Christ. Christ doesn't want us to exclude others as long as we know that 1- love God with all your heart, then 2 - love others as yourself ... no problem.

Most protestant sects tend to try to elbow out the rest of their family to try to have an exclusive relationship with Christ, and that is not what it is all about. In loving others, in our relationship with others we honor and love Christ as well... those others are also His Bride and His Body!

Marcia
 
Upvote 0

Lovesherald

Veteran
Dec 21, 2004
991
65
✟24,050.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Republican
clskinner said:
It's not that we pray to Mary to "get to Christ". I pray to Our Lord all the time. But I would ask Mary's intercession (ask Mary to pray for me) the same as I would ask for yours. Does it mean that my prayer to Jesus is ineffective? Of course not! But hey, it can't hurt to be persistent, or to have a prayer team praying for you.



Christ interceeds with the Father; others interceed with Christ. We are part of those "others", as are the Saints. Honestly, there's no 'pattern', but since we are all One Body, we are all interrelated, and all share in intercession, though in different ways.



Any place the Bible speaks of praying for one another. The Saints are our brothers and sisters in Heaven - they are alive, not dead - and they can intercede for us. It's not about worship, it's about family.


I know we can all pray for each other, but I think about who it is we are praying to. Well, I mean when I pray for my sister, I pray to Christ for my sister. She herself can do it also. I just don't ask Mary or a saint to pray to Christ. It isn't who we pray for, but who we pray to that I think can be sinful.

I hope I'm coming through clearly. With the above example, it isn't as if my sister is praying to me to pray to Christ, that would be weird, since I think only Christ should be prayed to.
 
Upvote 0

marciadietrich

Senior Veteran
Dec 5, 2002
4,385
296
62
Visit site
✟28,560.00
Faith
Catholic
pray is a term that really means "to ask" ... but has been taken by protestants to always be tied to worship.

Webster's pocket dictionary #1 definition of pray is implore and that is the Catholic meaning in terms of saints. You can implore or ask others as well as God. Knowing that God is the one to be worshipped and the one who is the ultimate source of all good.

Marcia
 
Upvote 0

Filia Mariae

Senior Contributor
Jul 27, 2003
8,228
735
USA
Visit site
✟12,006.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Hi Lovesherald:wave:

Welcome to OBOB! You are welcome to ask any questions you have, we love to answer them.:)

Lovesherald said:
I've always understood that cross scene as Jesus wanting to take care of His mother, like many other sons would do, holy or not. Like, "If I die, I want you to remarry" or "Please be my children's godparents" etc.

We don't have a problem with your understanding, its just that we believe it goes further. Jesus also says to His mother, "Behold, your son" in regards to John, the beloved disciple. He clearly places His disciples in the maternal care of His mother.

I believe we can have a relationship with Mary in that we are thankful she didn't refuse to bear Christ, but it seems like all the rituals (prayer to people other than Christ, confession, rosary, probably other things I don't know about, seem to be religion and not about having a relationship with Christ.

Well, confession doesn't really have much to do with Mary. If you have questions about it, I'd be happy to answer but its probably best left for another thread, since it is another topic entirely.

The rosary is a prayerful meditation on Christ's life, so it is all about communion with Our Lord and entering into His life, passion, death, and resurrection.

Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that?

Catholicism is all about Christ. I don't mean this to sound rude, and I sincerely apologize if it does, but it appears you don't know much about Catholicism. We are happy to answer any questions you have, but I ask you not to make judgements about our faith if you don't know much about it.
So many other people seem to get in the way.

I'm not trying to be rude so I'm sorry if it sounds that way.

No need for apologies, it is often difficult to convery intent over the internet.:)

I know we can all pray for each other, but I think about who it is we are praying to. Well, I mean when I pray for my sister, I pray to Christ for my sister. She herself can do it also. I just don't ask Mary or a saint to pray to Christ. It isn't who we pray for, but who we pray to that I think can be sinful.

When we pray "to" Mary or a saint, we are not praying to them in the sense that you are thinking. We are asking them to pray for us. Mary in and of herself has no power to answer my prayers. Rather, I ask her to pray for me to her Son, as I would ask my friend to pray for me. The only difference is, Mary is already in heaven.

In His Love,
Carly
 
Upvote 0

Highway of Life

Radical Middle -- Spirit, Word and Church
Jul 13, 2004
1,431
62
In the middle of the road.
Visit site
✟31,909.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Lovesherald said:
I am curious to see why Catholic people pray to Mary to get to Christ, why can't you yourselves talk to Christ? The Bible says that Christ is the intercessor. So do you all believe that you need an intercessor to get to the intercessor? If so, where does the pattern end?

I respect Mary because I know God chose her out of everyone on earth to conceive Jesus. What a blessing! I know Mary is blessed. The Bible says so. I also know that Saints are very holy men, but they are men. So, if you in fact pray to saints, where in the Bible does it say this is acceptable?
Greetings Lovesherald! :wave: Welcome to OBOB. You are welcome to ask questions anytime.

Here is a good thread on Confession...

http://www.christianforums.com/t829280-answering-some-questions.html

God Bless you in your search for truth.
Highway of Life
 
Upvote 0

Freedom&Light

and I will give you rest.
Jul 4, 2004
3,872
198
47
Longview, TX
✟27,566.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Lovesherald,

I'm in the process of becoming Catholic from a nondenomination background.

I understand your point of view, and prayers to Mary and the saints don't make much sense in that point of view. But, it makes sense when you think about Mary and the host of saints as a.)alive in Christ and b.) able to hear us on Earth (as mentioned in Rev 6 (? I think that's the chapter :)).

It really is me asking someone to pray for me. Most of the prayers to saints include the words (verbatim) "Pray for me." Mary, being Christ's mother, is really close to Him, and "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" - going to Mary and asking for her prayers is asking the most righteous woman in history to help you.

It takes a shift in point of view, and it's hard for me to explain it fully, but I understand why you struggle with this idea. :)
 
Upvote 0

EllenMoran

Lord, I believe, help my unbelief
Mar 16, 2004
1,351
101
46
Cincinnati, OH
✟24,524.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Others are doing a good job providing the facts on why we think it's completely appropriate to ask the saints to intercede for us. But as to why we'd use the method of praying to the saints to ask them to pray for us? Well, if we could call them up on the phone the way we can members of our congregation, I bet we'd all do it, but since our phone lines don't run to heaven yet we have to use another method. :)

Seriously, though, the historical definitions of the word "pray" have a lot to do with this discussion. Think of the Shakespearean "I pray thee, ..." construction, and the understanding of "pray" meaning "to ask" becomes clear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ps139
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Lovesherald said:
I am curious to see why Catholic people pray to Mary to get to Christ, why can't you yourselves talk to Christ? The Bible says that Christ is the intercessor. So do you all believe that you need an intercessor to get to the intercessor? If so, where does the pattern end?

I respect Mary because I know God chose her out of everyone on earth to conceive Jesus. What a blessing! I know Mary is blessed. The Bible says so. I also know that Saints are very holy men, but they are men. So, if you in fact pray to saints, where in the Bible does it say this is acceptable?
Haven’t you ever led anyone to Christ? Why did you do that? Can’t the person just go himself to Christ, why do they need you?

Do you believe in praying for others and asking them for prayers? Why? Can’t you just ask yourself what you want from God and can’t others do the same? Why you need to ask someone to pray for you?
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Lovesherald said:
I've always understood that cross scene as Jesus wanting to take care of His mother, like many other sons would do, holy or not. Like, "If I die, I want you to remarry" or "Please be my children's godparents" etc. I believe we can have a relationship with Mary in that we are thankful she didn't refuse to bear Christ, but it seems like all the rituals (prayer to people other than Christ, confession, rosary, probably other things I don't know about, seem to be religion and not about having a relationship with Christ. Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that? So many other people seem to get in the way.

I'm not trying to be rude so I'm sorry if it sounds that way.
Because the rituals are what it is to be human, they themselves pack no grace.

We pray rosaries to mediate on the life of Christ. Mary was there with him and she takes us into the mysteries, what she lived, what she saw and we mediate on that so that we can imitate the fruit of the mystery and through imitating the mystery we obtain the grace it promises.

Saying the rosary itself does no good, it is our allowing the fruit of the scriptures to take root in us that grants us grace.

We have beads, candles, icons, statues, pictures and rituals because we are human beings. The secular world uses hem too. We all have picture and statues of something or another for a variety of reasons and for a variety of uses. It is all a part of what it is to be a human. It means nothing extra just because we use them in our spiritual life and not just in our every day life. Even God asked for cherubs to be carved not for Him but for us, so that we may contemplate him better.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Lovesherald said:
I know we can all pray for each other, but I think about who it is we are praying to. Well, I mean when I pray for my sister, I pray to Christ for my sister. She herself can do it also. I just don't ask Mary or a saint to pray to Christ. It isn't who we pray for, but who we pray to that I think can be sinful.

I hope I'm coming through clearly. With the above example, it isn't as if my sister is praying to me to pray to Christ, that would be weird, since I think only Christ should be prayed to.
The term ‘pray’ means to ask. We use the term in our secular world, praying does not = worship.

Christ said he is a God of the living not the dead, those who die and are saved are not dead but alive, we can ask for them to pray for us just as you ask those here to pray for you there is no difference except they are holy and sanctified. We are yet to be. The bible says the prayers of the righteous prevail much. Revelation says that the incense are the prayers of the ‘holy ones’ going up.
 
Upvote 0

Michelina

.
Site Supporter
Nov 6, 2003
13,640
663
✟19,733.00
Faith
Catholic
I think all the responses have been good and should really give you, lovesherald, some food for thought. Now I would like to ask some questions:

Why do you think it is necessary to exclude other members of the Body of Christ, i.e. your family, from praying for you? (Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you, or for someone, or for some intention?

Do you think this demeans Our Lord, Who made us a family?

Don't you think that the Gospel indicates that we are to love God and each other?

Do you think that the Saints in heaven are dead? Can't see or hear us?

The reason I ask these questions, lovesherald, is because I think your OP question contains a lot of false assumptions. I hope you will think about the responses above and, if you feel like it, answer my questions. Thanks! :wave:
 
Upvote 0

Michelina

.
Site Supporter
Nov 6, 2003
13,640
663
✟19,733.00
Faith
Catholic
lovesherald, maybe your problem is with our veneration of the Saints.

We worship God alone. (Latria)
We venerate Saints. (Dulia)
We highly venerate Mary. (Hyper-dulia)

Our Bless-ed Mother Mary is indeed bless-ed, not merely blessed.
Eulogomena (one to be praised), not makaria, one who has been blessed.

(Eulogomena) Bless-ed are you among women.
(Makarioi) Blessed are the poor in spirit...

lovesherald, if your problem is with dulia or hyperdulia in themselves, all I can say is that there is no reason for us not to venerate anyone.

On the other hand, if you think we worship anyone other than God, you are way off base.
 
Upvote 0

Rising_Suns

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
Jul 14, 2002
10,836
793
46
Saint Louis, MO
✟39,335.00
Faith
Catholic
Lovesherald said:
I believe we can have a relationship with Mary in that we are thankful she didn't refuse to bear Christ, but it seems like all the rituals (prayer to people other than Christ, confession, rosary, probably other things I don't know about, seem to be religion and not about having a relationship with Christ. Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that? So many other people seem to get in the way.

I'm not trying to be rude so I'm sorry if it sounds that way.

Lovesherald, peace be with you,
Please also keep in mind that, as a Protestant, you only use part of the teachings of Jesus Christ; the part that was written down in writing (Scripture). The Catholic Church contains the complete teachings of Christ, both what was written, and what was passed down orally before the Bible even existed.

Yes, it is true that Jesus' sacrifice made salvation possible, but Protestants tend to ignore everything else about God, especially the fact that we have a complete spiritual family; we have a Father, and He appointed Mary to be our mother. Jesus is our eldest brother and our savior ("whoever believes in me are my brothers and sisters"); our family is complete.

Of course Mary is not divine; she is a created being, and just like anyone of us, she needed to be saved as well. But we also know that Mary, after being assumed into heaven, was given this very special role as our mother, and now has the power to freely distribute God's graces at her will through her peitions. Everything that she is and everything that she does points to her Song Jesus Christ, and she works tirelessly to bring the world to know her Son more. We have evidence of this through the many appritions and visions she has appeared to people through the centuries.

We know that through her motherly love, she undoubtedly petitions to God for the salvation of souls, and her prayers carry more weight than all the saints and angels in heaven.

"The prayers of the righteous are very powerfull." [Jer 17:9]

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide
 
Upvote 0

Michelina

.
Site Supporter
Nov 6, 2003
13,640
663
✟19,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Since Christ is the end all answer, why does it appear that Catholicism doesn't incorporate that?

It only "appears" that way to those who don't know Catholicism.

lovesherald, it's absurd to assert that Catholics don't know that Jesus is the "end-all answer". We know that. But Protestants don't seem to know anything about the Mystical Body, the communion of Saints, etc, etc, etc and when they hear about them, they think Catholics are fools or nuts. I am glad that you came to us to learn about these things, instead of simply repeating the disinformation about Catholicism. It was the Christian thing to do.

When you have digested what you have learned on this thread, you will be able to inform others about what we actually believe. And I thank you in advance for that! :wave:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.