Non-Christians???

[Zaac]

I'm just wondering if any of you understand the difference between the Old Testament laws(Mosaic and Ritualistic) and the completed law after Jesus Christ?

I keep seeing all these threads where folks are trying to justify homosexual sex by asking if Christians are keeping other Levitical laws.

Yall know the drill. The whole do Christians also "not wear mixed fibers, put their dishonorable kids" to death, etc,. argument for why homosexual sex is okay.

Ritualistic, or Levitical Law can be broken down into the Sacrificial Law, or Law of Atonement and the Law of Purification. If you look at both portions of Levitical Law, it becomes clear that the Child of God no longer need be concerned with the requirements of this Law.

At the same time, it needs to be understood that the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments of God, God's standard of conduct for His people, must be followed.

The Law of Atonement, or Sacrificial Law, required that an offering be presented to God for a sin debt. This has carried thru to some of today's Christian Churches in the form of Penance. The whole concept in its basest form is,
" If you sin, you must give God something to show your sorry."

The Law of Purification had numerous requirements that had to be followed to make one acceptable before God. They ranged from ritualistic washings, or ablutions; who could be married or associated with; what manner of dress and grooming was acceptable; prohibitions against the ingestion of blood; thru, what foods could be eaten. Again, we find this Law being observed today among some groups of Christians.

All the requirements of Ritualistic Law, both Sacrificial & Purification, were met, for all time, by Jesus.
"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill." Mat 5:17

But then you have NEW TESTAMENT laws that reinforce that God's way is one husband unioned with his one wife and everything else being considered sexual immorality.

 

[Yusha']

So you are saying that the great King Solomon عليه السلام was immoral for having so many wives? Why Almighty God never rebuked the King Solomon for taking so many wives? Believe me if something is sexually immoral 3000 years ago, it would definitely be sexually immoral 3000 years later.

 

[Zaac]

So you are saying that the great King Solomon عليه السلام was immoral for having so many wives? Why Almighty God never rebuked the King Solomon for taking so many wives? Believe me if something is sexually immoral 3000 years ago, it would definitely be sexually immoral 3000 years later.

Of course he was immoral. God NEVER in His word affirmed that HIS intent was that anyone ever have more than one wife. And don't we have a Biblical record of all sorts of Patriarchs and Bible greats as being morally lacking at some point?


That's why you get over to Matthew 19 and Jesus reiterates : 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Sides, who in their right mind would want 700 wives?

If you do a study of the genealogy of Jesus, you see that He comes through the line of the FIRST wife---the legitimate wife.

 

[b&wpac4]

I understand that you guys think that's the way it is. I just reject your theology.

 

[Zaac]

I understand that you guys think that's the way it is. I just reject your theology.

If you're Jewish and are practicing Judaism, you reject Jesus as Lord and Savior so we expect you to reject the fulfilling of the law.

Just curious. Do you and your family still adhere to the ritualistic laws?

 

[b&wpac4]

Just curious. Do you and your family still adhere to the ritualistic laws?

Parts of my fiancee's family is Orthodox and are pretty static in their practice of the ritualistic laws. I'm Conservative, so I follow the laws as they have been understood by the conservative movement.

 

[b&wpac4]

On a side note, you will almost never see me claim that gentiles have to follow the law at all. I only get annoyed at people who yell and scream at me that I need Jesus. If you want to debate me on it, my PM box is open, but giving me a hard time for it? Kind of a bad example. (Not directed at anybody here specifically)

 

[Yusha']

Of course he was immoral. God NEVER in His word affirmed that HIS intent was that anyone ever have more than one wife. And don't we have a Biblical record of all sorts of Patriarchs and Bible greats as being morally lacking at some point?

Well of course everyone sins, and than God Almighty rebukes them for the sin. Just look at the passage that discusses Solomon عليه السلملا and his wives. According to it, God rebukes King Solomon for allowing his wives to convince him to worship idols. But God says nothing about the fact that Solomon has so many wives in the first place, He only rebukes him for idolatry, not for polygamy. And the same passage, however, says that King David عليه السلام had a devoted heart to God (1 Kings 11:4). And of course we all know that King David عليه السلام was also polygamous, he had two wives at the same time, and that was never condemned by God or any prophet.

If you do a study of the genealogy of Jesus, you see that He comes through the line of the FIRST wife---the legitimate wife.

Actually I did study the genealogIES of Jesus عليه سلام. According to the New Testament, Jesus has two different genealogies from Joseph, one is recorded in Matthew and a different one in Luke. Quite amazing, how can Jesus have two paternal grandfathers, Jacob or Heli? And to make matters even more complicated, Joseph wasn't even the biological father of Jesus, since Jesus was the result of a miraculous virgin birth.

 

[ArgentBear]

I'm just wondering if any of you understand the difference between the Old Testament laws(Mosaic and Ritualistic) and the completed law after Jesus Christ?

More people might understand the difference if there were not so many Christians trying to justify the application of SOME cherry picked OT laws
Unsupported claims about separation of Old Testament law as a reasoning for cherry picking laws to ignore and inflict manages to make the application of New Testament look hypocritical
I keep seeing all these threads where folks are trying to justify homosexual sex by asking if Christians are keeping other Levitical laws.

Yall know the drill. The whole do Christians also "not wear mixed fibers, put their dishonorable kids" to death, etc,. argument for why homosexual sex is okay.

Or more precisely people ask why it is acceptable to ignore inconvenient Old Testament laws while cherry picking laws to justify personal prejudice. It gets especially confusing when the no longer applicable laws are right next to the “I know God wants me to use THIS law” law

Ritualistic, or Levitical Law can be broken down into the Sacrificial Law, or Law of Atonement and the Law of Purification.

Please provide chapter and verse from the bible showing that such divisions exist

If you look at both portions of Levitical Law, it becomes clear that the Child of God no longer need be concerned with the requirements of this Law.

At the same time, it needs to be understood that the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments of God, God's standard of conduct for His people, must be followed.

The Law of Atonement, or Sacrificial Law, required that an offering be presented to God for a sin debt. This has carried thru to some of today's Christian Churches in the form of Penance. The whole concept in its basest form is,
" If you sin, you must give God something to show your sorry."

The Law of Purification had numerous requirements that had to be followed to make one acceptable before God. They ranged from ritualistic washings, or ablutions; who could be married or associated with; what manner of dress and grooming was acceptable; prohibitions against the ingestion of blood; thru, what foods could be eaten. Again, we find this Law being observed today among some groups of Christians.

All the requirements of Ritualistic Law, both Sacrificial & Purification, were met, for all time, by Jesus.
"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill." Mat 5:17

But then you have NEW TESTAMENT laws that reinforce that God's way is one husband unioned with his one wife and everything else being considered sexual immorality.

And every time I ask for chapter and verse detailing that such a division exists and chapter and verse indicating what Old Testament laws belong in what category no real answer is ever forthcoming. I have received non-answers like “I don’t have time to quote scripture” and “If you were a REAL Christian you would accept every thing I say as truth” to my personal favorite “I don’t have to biblically justify my biblical interpretation neyh neyh”

 

[Zaac]

On a side note, you will almost never see me claim that gentiles have to follow the law at all. I only get annoyed at people who yell and scream at me that I need Jesus. If you want to debate me on it, my PM box is open, but giving me a hard time for it? Kind of a bad example. (Not directed at anybody here specifically)

So may I ask what you think will happen to the Gentiles if the Jesus they follow is not correct and they are not doing what the adherents of Judaism do as a sacrifice for sin?

 

[ArgentBear]

Of course he was immoral. God NEVER in His word affirmed that HIS intent was that anyone ever have more than one wife. And don't we have a Biblical record of all sorts of Patriarchs and Bible greats as being morally lacking at some point?

Except that God himself recognizes polygamous marriages by referring to all those women as the Wife (wives) of Solomon.

 

[b&wpac4]

So may I ask what you think will happen to the Gentiles if the Jesus they follow is not correct and they are not doing what the adherents of Judaism do as a sacrifice for sin?

What do you mean what happens? Hell does not exist in Judaism. It is a purely Christian concept. One does not have to be Jewish to have a place in the World to Come.

 

[ArgentBear]

Well of course everyone sins, and than God Almighty rebukes them for the sin. Just look at the passage that discusses Solomon عليه السلملا and his wives. According to it, God rebukes King Solomon for allowing his wives to convince him to worship idols. But God says nothing about the fact that Solomon has so many wives in the first place, He only rebukes him for idolatry, not for polygamy. And the same passage, however, says that King David عليه السلام had a devoted heart to God (1 Kings 11:4). And of course we all know that King David عليه السلام was also polygamous, he had two wives at the same time, and that was never condemned by God or any prophet.

Correct.
And it is good to remember that God explicitly states that David’s ONLY sin was in the killing of Uriah. The taking of Uriah’s widow Bathsheba as his second wife was not a sin according to God

 

[Nooj]

So may I ask what you think will happen to the Gentiles if the Jesus they follow is not correct and they are not doing what the adherents of Judaism do as a sacrifice for sin?

Gentiles do not have to follow Judaism, in fact that's the whole point of Judaism - it's for the Jews.

 

[Zaac]

Well of course everyone sins, and than God Almighty rebukes them for the sin. Just look at the passage that discusses Solomon عليه السلملا and his wives. According to it, God rebukes King Solomon for allowing his wives to convince him to worship idols. But God says nothing about the fact that Solomon has so many wives in the first place, He only rebukes him for idolatry, not for polygamy. And the same passage, however, says that King David عليه السلام had a devoted heart to God (1 Kings 11:4). And of course we all know that King David عليه السلام was also polygamous, he had two wives at the same time, and that was never condemned by God or any prophet.

This is another point I don't get. Why do people expect God to keep repeating Himself when He has ALREADY said something? He set the standard for what marriage would be in Genesis 2 so why would He have to keep telling people that?

Actually I did study the genealogIES of Jesus عليه سلام. According to the New Testament, Jesus has two different genealogies from Joseph, one is recorded in Matthew and a different one in Luke. Quite amazing, how can Jesus have two paternal grandfathers, Jacob or Heli? And to make matters even more complicated, Joseph wasn't even the biological father of Jesus, since Jesus was the result of a miraculous virgin birth.

It is indeed a rich history to look at those genealogies and see how everything fell into place for a certain lineage of the tribe of Judah to produce Jesus.

Back in my younger days, I used to think "I'm not reading all those names. they aren't important." But once you get into the intricacies of that lineage and how God placed certain people in certain locations to lead to that lineage...WOW!

 

[Zaac]

Except that God himself recognizes polygamous marriages by referring to all those women as the Wife (wives) of Solomon.

He recognizes divorce too. It's still a sin.

 

[Zaac]

What do you mean what happens? Hell does not exist in Judaism. It is a purely Christian concept. One does not have to be Jewish to have a place in the World to Come.

So what happens to Jews who don't keep the law?

 

[Zaac]

Gentiles do not have to follow Judaism, in fact that's the whole point of Judaism - it's for the Jews.

So what does Judaism say happens to those (Jews and Gentiles) who don't keep the law?

 

[b&wpac4]

So what happens to Jews who don't keep the law?

Most tradition would hold that if you were a bad person (and Jews are held to a higher standard), you must go through a period of purification before being allowed in, so to speak.

 

[Nooj]

So what does Judaism say happens to those (Jews and Gentiles) who don't keep the law?

Gentiles can't 'keep the Law' because the Mosaic Law wasn't given for them. However, there is the concept of the 7 Noahide Laws, the laws which were given to Noah after the Flood and is hence binding on every nation, Jew and Gentile.

What happens to those who aren't righteous? Judaism's not all that very clear on the concept of the afterlife (although it affirms that it exists), and Judaism has lots of divisions so it depends on who you ask. It's not as easy as saying that everyone gets in eventually after purging themselves of sin in some sort of purgatory, although that is a fairly common belief.

I remember reading that denying the resurrection of the dead was considered grounds for not having a place in the world to come. That might have been in the Talmud.