Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

Dark_Lite said:

Link to the text in question? Keep in mind I'm not looking just for an invisible Church. I'm looking for an invisible Church that is completely and utterly separate from a visible Church. I believe it is fairly well-known that Augustine believed in a visible institution.

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You know, I looked around quite a bit for a good link before posting that but I couldn't find anything with primary source links on the web. Maybe your google-fu is stronger than mine.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Church - NEW ADVENT: Home

St. Augustine terms the Church "mundus salvatus" — the redeemed world — and ..... Indeed for this distinction between a visible and an invisible Church .

WarriorAngel said:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Church - NEW ADVENT: Home

St. Augustine terms the Church "mundus salvatus" — the redeemed world — and ..... Indeed for this distinction between a visible and an invisible Church .

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And by "the Church", you are talking about the present day RCC?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7368885-21/

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

This doctrine of the absolute necessity of union with the Church was taught in explicit terms by Christ. Baptism, the act of incorporation among her members, He affirmed to be essential to salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Any disciple who shall throw off obedience to the Church is to be reckoned as one of the heathen: he has no part in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:17). St. Paul is equally explicit. "A man that is a heretic", he writes to Titus, "after the first and second admonition avoid, knowing that he that is such a one is . . . condemned by his own judgment" (Titus 3:10 sq.). The doctrine is summed up in the phrase, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. This saying has been the occasion of so many objections that some consideration of its meaning seems desirable. It certainly does not mean that none can be saved except those who are in visible communion with the Church. The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven. It is true such acts could not possibly be elicited by one who was aware that God has commanded all to join the Church, and who nevertheless should willfully remain outside her fold. For love of God carries with it the practical desire to fulfill His commandments. But of those who die without visible communion with the Church, not all are guilty of willful disobedience to God's commands. Many are kept from the Church by ignorance. Such may be the case of numbers among those who have been brought up in heresy. To others the external means of grace may be unattainable. Thus an excommunicated person may have no opportunity of seeking reconciliation at the last, and yet may repair his faults by inward acts of contrition and charity.
It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God's commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which God saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church's graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body. Yet the possibility of salvation apart from visible communion with the Church must not blind us to the loss suffered by those who are thus situated. They are cut off from the sacraments God has given as the support of the soul. In the ordinary channels of grace, which are ever open to the faithful Catholic, they cannot participate. Countless means of sanctification which the Church offers are denied to them. It is often urged that this is a stern and narrow doctrine. The reply to this objection is that the doctrine is stern, but only in the sense in which sternness is inseparable from love. It is the same sternness which we find in Christ's words, when he said: "If you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin" (John 8:24). The Church is animated with the spirit of Christ; she is filled with the same love for souls, the same desire for their salvation. Since, then, she knows that the way of salvation is through union with her, that in her and in her alone are stored the benefits of the Passion, she must needs be uncompromising and even stern in the assertion of her claims. To fail here would be to fail in the duty entrusted to her by her Lord. Even where the message is unwelcome, she must deliver it.



It is instructive to observe that this doctrine has been proclaimed at every period of the Church's history. It is no accretion of a later age.....


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Church

LittleLambofJesus said:

And by "the Church", you are talking about the present day RCC?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7368885-21/

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

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Did Jesus prophecy His Church should end?

WarriorAngel said:

Did Jesus prophecy His Church should end?

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Nope. It is still going strong to this day, whether it is the RCC or Protestant Church [Can't say that about the OC Jewish Church of today tho]

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them "verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to this, the Mountain, ye may saying 'be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea' it shall be becoming"
[Galatian 4:24,25/Revelation 8:8]

Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood
[Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]

LittleLambofJesus said:

I did a google search concerning Augustine and the "visible/invisible" Church and didn't find much.
Whatever happened to the simplicity of the Gospel?

The Church as Visible and Invisible

Advanced Historical Theology The Theology of Augustine

..........Augustine’s theology is summarized as follows: his theory of knowledge revolved around two ideas: whether knowledge was possible and if it is possible, how was it acquired?......

........ This holiness, though, is a work of God. This divine grace comes to men in and through Jesus Christ, but in the context of the communion of the church.

The visible church comprises local meeting houses of the membership of those that have professed faith in Christ and their children; all those people who are part of the church and are alive today.
The invisible church are all the elect from all time. .........

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St. Augustine knew where to find the visible Church:

The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

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CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus (Augustine)

St. Augustine, ora pro nobis!

tadoflamb said:

St. Augustine knew where to find the visible Church:

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http://www.christianforums.com/t5603395/

Dark_Lite said:

As an example of someone in this supposedly invisible body within the bounds of the visible body.

Link to the text in question? Keep in mind I'm not looking just for an invisible Church. I'm looking for an invisible Church that is completely and utterly separate from a visible Church.

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Um, which way do you want it?

WarriorAngel said:

Any disciple who shall throw off obedience to the Church is to be reckoned as one of the heathen: he has no part in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:17).

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Can we try reading Mt 18:15 - 17?

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

No offense, but this doesn't even come CLOSE to saying what you tried to make it say. No way, no how.

That's the first and only part of your very thoroughly linked post I looked at.

razeontherock said:

Um, which way do you want it?

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The Protestant claim is that there's an invisible church completely separate from any visible institution. The Catholic claim is that there is an invisible church that might extend beyond the bounds of the visible institution, but that the Church is a visible institution.

My charge is that the notion of the invisible church was invented in the 1500s as a way to justify the existence of Protestantism. I am thus looking for extrabiblical historical evidence (ECFs, etc) that support the notion of the invisible church. Thus far, none has been presented. Augustine was mentioned, but it was shown, I believe, that he believed in a visible institution as the Church.

Dark_Lite said:

The Protestant claim is that there's an invisible church completely separate from any visible institution.

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*idly points out that said invisible institution seems to disagree with itself a lot*

Dark_Lite said:

The Protestant claim is that there's an invisible church completely separate from any visible institution. The Catholic claim is that there is an invisible church that might extend beyond the bounds of the visible institution, but that the Church is a visible institution.

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So you feel that it's both invisible and visible?

My charge is that the notion of the invisible church was invented in the 1500s as a way to justify the existence of Protestantism. I am thus looking for extrabiblical historical evidence (ECFs, etc) that support the notion of the invisible church. Thus far, none has been presented. Augustine was mentioned, but it was shown, I believe, that he believed in a visible institution as the Church.

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Why "extrabiblical"?

laconicstudent said:

*idly points out that said invisible institution seems to disagree with itself a lot*

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w/e

laconicstudent said:

*idly points out that said invisible institution seems to disagree with itself a lot*

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That's funny, you can't see the invisible church but you can hear it.

sunlover1 said:

So you feel that it's both invisible and visible?

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The Church is a visible institution. However, the body of Christ may extend beyond the visible institution. We know where the body is, but not where it isn't--or something to that effect. It is a fairly complicated teaching involving baptism and various other things. The only thing that's relevant to this discussion is that the Catholic Church considers itself "the Church" and that various other Christian groups are imperfectly united with it.

Why "extrabiblical"?

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Because the Bible can say anything people want it to say. Plus, if it was actually a belief in the early Church, there should be more than just a few Bible verses supporting it. Both the Catholics and the Orthodox can point to Early Church Fathers, archaeology, and other historical evidence, along with the Bible, in order to justify their beliefs. Protestants should be able to do the same, if it was that their beliefs were actually found in the early Church.

I own a copy of the CCC. My view of it is that it's a really well written articulation of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and so at times I agree with it and at times I don't. The most value I've found in it so far is in debates or conversations where there's a certain level of ignorant Catholic bashing and general Rome-aphobia; the CCC has helped demonstrate that certain accusations are flat out false. Though, often, that doesn't matter since little things like facts usually aren't enough to dissuade the truly spiteful and ignorant.

-CryptoLutheran

The only thing that's relevant to this discussion is that the Catholic Church considers itself "the Church" and that various other Christian groups are imperfectly united with it.

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So if we are united by the Spirit how can one be imperfectly united?

MamaZ said:

So if we are united by the Spirit how can one be imperfectly united?

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The Roman Catholic Church understands itself to be the catholic Church, the Church Universal instituted by Christ and led by His Apostles who ordained bishops and priests to continue their own Spirit-led leadership of Christ's Church. It understands itself as having remained unchanged since the very beginning when Christ, having appointed Peter as "the rock", became the first Bishop of Rome and therefore the first Pope; and therefore every successor of St. Peter sits in St. Peter's chair as primate among all bishops, and pastor of the universal Church.

To be outside of communion with the very Church which Christ instituted means to be outside of communion with the Church (a redundant phrasing, I know). Therefore, even though by virtue of our Baptisms we who are not in communion with Rome are recognized as being Christians, we remain outside of the fullness of the faith which is preserved solely within Christ's universal and undivided Church; thus we are "imperfectly united" and are "separated brethren". We are still Christians, we have received Holy Baptism, but we are not members of Christ's one holy, catholic and apostolic Church (from the vantage point of Roman Catholicism according to its ecclesiology).

Though, obviously as a Protestant, I disagree; it's still important to understand the Catholic POV on this issue.

Quickie Greek and History lesson: The word catholic comes from the Greek kathalikos, meaning "according to the whole", often translated as "universal"; the first recorded usage comes from St. Ignatius' (c. 107 AD) epistle to the Smyrnaeans. The Church catholic is in distinction from (for example) the Church in Corinth, or the Church in Ephesus, it refers to the whole or the entire Church everywhere. Thus Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus and Jerusalem are all part of the same Church, even though they are members of the local community that constitutes the Church in their specific locales.

-CryptoLutheran

MamaZ said:

So if we are united by the Spirit how can one be imperfectly united?

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Would that be the same thing as defective

Pope: Jesus formed 'only one church' - World news - Europe - The Vatican - msnbc.com
Pope: Other denominations not true churches

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.......

CryptoLutheran said:

The Roman Catholic Church understands itself to be the catholic Church, the Church Universal instituted by Christ and led by His Apostles who ordained bishops and priests to continue their own Spirit-led leadership of Christ's Church. It understands itself as having remained unchanged since the very beginning when Christ, having appointed Peter as "the rock", became the first Bishop of Rome and therefore the first Pope; and therefore every successor of St. Peter sits in St. Peter's chair as primate among all bishops, and pastor of the universal Church.

To be outside of communion with the very Church which Christ instituted means to be outside of communion with the Church (a redundant phrasing, I know). Therefore, even though by virtue of our Baptisms we who are not in communion with Rome are recognized as being Christians, we remain outside of the fullness of the faith which is preserved solely within Christ's universal and undivided Church; thus we are "imperfectly united" and are "separated brethren". We are still Christians, we have received Holy Baptism, but we are not members of Christ's one holy, catholic and apostolic Church (from the vantage point of Roman Catholicism according to its ecclesiology).

Though, obviously as a Protestant, I disagree; it's still important to understand the Catholic POV on this issue.

Quickie Greek and History lesson: The word catholic comes from the Greek kathalikos, meaning "according to the whole", often translated as "universal"; the first recorded usage comes from St. Ignatius' (c. 107 AD) epistle to the Smyrnaeans. The Church catholic is in distinction from (for example) the Church in Corinth, or the Church in Ephesus, it refers to the whole or the entire Church everywhere. Thus Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus and Jerusalem are all part of the same Church, even though they are members of the local community that constitutes the Church in their specific locales.

-CryptoLutheran

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Thanks for that "clarification"

CryptoLutheran said:

The Roman Catholic Church understands itself to be the catholic Church, the Church Universal instituted by Christ and led by His Apostles who ordained bishops and priests to continue their own Spirit-led leadership of Christ's Church. It understands itself as having remained unchanged since the very beginning when Christ, having appointed Peter as "the rock", became the first Bishop of Rome and therefore the first Pope; and therefore every successor of St. Peter sits in St. Peter's chair as primate among all bishops, and pastor of the universal Church.

To be outside of communion with the very Church which Christ instituted means to be outside of communion with the Church (a redundant phrasing, I know). Therefore, even though by virtue of our Baptisms we who are not in communion with Rome are recognized as being Christians, we remain outside of the fullness of the faith which is preserved solely within Christ's universal and undivided Church; thus we are "imperfectly united" and are "separated brethren". We are still Christians, we have received Holy Baptism, but we are not members of Christ's one holy, catholic and apostolic Church (from the vantage point of Roman Catholicism according to its ecclesiology).

Though, obviously as a Protestant, I disagree; it's still important to understand the Catholic POV on this issue.

Quickie Greek and History lesson: The word catholic comes from the Greek kathalikos, meaning "according to the whole", often translated as "universal"; the first recorded usage comes from St. Ignatius' (c. 107 AD) epistle to the Smyrnaeans. The Church catholic is in distinction from (for example) the Church in Corinth, or the Church in Ephesus, it refers to the whole or the entire Church everywhere. Thus Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus and Jerusalem are all part of the same Church, even though they are members of the local community that constitutes the Church in their specific locales.

-CryptoLutheran

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Still if we are born again believers we are united to Christs true body through the blood and the Spirit. Because we do not belong to the RCC has nothing to do with being a part and in communion with Christs true Church His body.. It is not a human institution but a Spiritual body.. For we read in scripture that if one has the Spirit of Christ they are His but if they do not have the Spirit they are none of His. Are they also saying then that they have claims on the HS?