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What kind of sophists' retort is that? All you did was employ sophistry. If I were to follow your advice, I'd be better off a pagan or a Gnostic than a Christ. At least, then, I'd have something more tangible than a Christianity devoid of justice and truth.
LLOJ once agains heads for the dictionary/wiki!What kind of sophists' retort is that? All you did was employ sophistry: you did not address my concern nor give me a reply. It was a vagary and not really much of an answer; you seemed to side-step the question. If I were to follow your advice, I'd be better off a pagan or a Gnostic than a Christ. At least, then, I'd have something more tangible than a Christianity devoid of justice and value; particularly the value of Christ's Holy Passion.
I can go to the yellow pages and find all kinds of Churches in it.
Heck, I see more Baptist/Pentecost/Charismatic churches in my area than I do RC Churches
http://www.christianforums.com/t5603395/
My Problem with the Invisible Church
What da heck! Why is that thread closed.
I was gonna bump it ehehe
I can't believe I missed that one!The last post was: 10th July 2006, 02:23 AM
I am not God, I do not claim to have ALL the answers.I can admit if I do not know something or understand it.
Not everybody claiming, "Lord, Lord" is truly in the Body of Christ. God knows who are truly his and who are truly following him, not me.
I did not say it is some 'small' group of people either, where did you get that from?The Body of Christ is HUGE!
My goodness! Does your Denomination really view Tyndale and the reformers as being that bad!?*snip*
The only instances you could really point to are the few isolated incidents right before the Reformation (Tyndale, etc). But those are well, isolated...
My goodness! Does your Denomination really view Tyndale and the reformers as being that bad!?
Shame on you and your Denomination
What kind of example? Just curiousNot really ranting about Tyndale or such. Just using him as a possible example.
I pose the same questions to you. Why would God let this wrongness spread so far if it was truth from the beginning that the Church is not a visible institution? Where is the historical evidence that the Church is only invisible? Why would it even be invisible?
Your take on this really sounds like Protoprotestantism Lite. There isn't any credible evidence for the notion of an invisible Church completely and utterly separate from the visible Church up until the 16th century when Luther and co. decided it would be a good idea to justify their existence with.
Ok, so if the body of Christ is now huge, why would there be one dominant visible organization that's "polluted" with non-Christian teachings that has two huge visible groups within it? And why didn't this supposedly large group attempt to make the truth really known for the first 1500 years?
The only instances you could really point to are the few isolated incidents right before the Reformation (Tyndale, etc). But those are well, isolated...
In the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul certainly alludes to a Church that includes all those who are "sanctified in Christ Jesus, [and] called to be saints."
1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
Yet in Galatians 1:6-9 and 2:4, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9-16, and other places, Paul makes it perfectly clear that not all those who gathered together were true Christians and that false believers and false teachers were also among them. Our Lord even warned of false teachers who would try to destroy the faith of the redeemed.
Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
The universal body of Christ, the Church Catholic, is made up of all those who have been graciously justified by God through faith in Christ alone. Only God knows for certain who these are and whether true saving faith in Christ is present in them.
These members of the one true Church stand side-by-side with hypocrites, false teachers, deniers of Christ, wolves in sheep's clothing, and those whose faith looks not to Christ's work on their behalf alone but to their own good works for their justification. This true Church is invisible to the human eye and quite often imperceptible to the human heart.
As we confess in the Apostle's Creed, we believe in the "communion of saints" and "the holy catholic (universal) church." In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church."
That is why it is known as the Invisible Church, it is invisible to the human eye and we must accept it as an article of faith.
I pose the same questions to you. Why would God let this wrongness spread so far if it was truth from the beginning that the Church is not a visible institution?
I was really more interested in extra-biblical sources.
Yah, that last word there? That's where my eyes glaze over. Jesus did not come into this world to create an institution. We are told very specifically why He did so, and that's just not even part of it.
Christianity was first a Body of believers.
When it got to Rome, they turned it into an institution. That didn't stop God, but neither did it affect what the Church truly is. Something about gates not prevailing ...
There goes that eyes glazing over thing again ...
What kind of example? Just curious
Edit to add: Btw, W. Tyndale is my patron Saint
Augustine, writing against the Donatists.I was really more interested in extra-biblical sources. The Bible can be made to say almost anything one wants it to say. Are there any early Christian writings that clearly support an invisible church that is utterly separate from a visible institution?
Augustine, writing against the Donatists.
I did a google search concerning Augustine and the "visible/invisible" Church and didn't find much.Link to the text in question? Keep in mind I'm not looking just for an invisible Church. I'm looking for an invisible Church that is completely and utterly separate from a visible Church. I believe it is fairly well-known that Augustine believed in a visible institution.
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