Non believers and death

[memoriesbymichelle]

So we know that we must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior in order to make it into eternal life with Him in Heaven, right?
But are we too quick to say that some people will go to hell?

So I say this because a friend in my bible study's mom died this week. She was 86 I think. My friend says the hardest part was that she was not a believer.
I have a 95 year old aunt. I fear she won't make it much longer since they have moved her from her house to assisted living. She can never seem to talk on the phone anymore or hear what I am saying and today she just seemed so sad....She believes in a "higher power" and that Jesus was a "good man" but doesn't necessarily believe He died on the cross for her. I have tried to talk to her, but she didn't seem to like it too much so I let it go and just pray for her instead.

It just got me thinking because how do we know (we don't) whether they accept Jesus right before they died (like the thief on the cross)? My aunt is a "good" person as in, she gives alot to charity and is very generous to family and doesn't hurt anyone. I know she is a sinner, but to me, I see God sending to hell the truly wicked people that delight in wickedness, not my aunt or possibly my friend's mom.

I think there will be lots of surprises in Heaven. I think some that we "think" will be there won't and some that we think no way will be there. JMHO.

 

[Tnmusicman]

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God."

I know this is not what is most comforting right now but nonetheless it is the duty of any Christian to tell others about accepting Jesus and the consequences for not accepting the gift of salvation.

On the other hand, I do believe in deathbed conversions. Since NOONE except Jesus knows the hearts of men we cannot say with any certainty that so and so will or will not be in heaven.It's up to God to ultimately make that call but if we are to accept Scripture then a persons "goodness" has no bearing on where they spend eternity.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God."

I know this is not what is most comforting right now but nonetheless it is the duty of any Christian to tell others about accepting Jesus and the consequences for not accepting the gift of salvation.

On the other hand, I do believe in deathbed conversions. Since NOONE except Jesus knows the hearts of men we cannot say with any certainty that so and so will or will not be in heaven.It's up to God to ultimately make that call but if we are to accept Scripture then a persons "goodness" has no bearing on where they spend eternity.

never said their "goodness" would have any bearing. All I was stating was that we don't know and unless we are there and the person is screaming at us to shut up about Jesus we won't know. I know and believe that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but since we are not God we cannot and IMO should not be telling people they will go to hell or that their loved one is in hell because they didn't believe.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Oh and BTW I wasn't looking for comfort either. Just sayin.....

 

[Lone Wolfe]

WOW! I guess he (Tnmusicman) intended for us to really see that post? Talk about going overboard? LOL.

That is something I think about all the time when it comes to both of my parents? I hope and pray that they will be in Heaven but, I am not aware of either of them being saved prior to their deaths?

True, we don't know their hearts or what took place prior to their deaths so, we worry about those things, especially when we become believers and we want to know our loved ones are going to be there with us?

I've always had a difficult time with the idea that child murderers can enter the Kingdom of Heaven if they are saved just before they throw the switch or inject that poison but, that's exactly what Jesus says so, who are we to judge them or question what Jesus has said about the true believers having eternal life???

 

[exitstageright]

never said their "goodness" would have any bearing. All I was stating was that we don't know and unless we are there and the person is screaming at us to shut up about Jesus we won't know. I know and believe that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but since we are not God we cannot and IMO should not be telling people they will go to hell or that their loved one is in hell because they didn't believe.

Hell was NEVER meant for people.Hell was ORIGINALLY prepared for the Devil and his angels,the demons. When I witness to people,I tell them that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of unbelief.The thief on the cross was saved at the last minute. However,he was fortunate because he KNEW when he was going to die. That is why,when someone first hears the gospel,one MUST believe,because most of us do not know when we are going to die.
So,technically,GOD does not send anyone to hell. Hell is now empty.The saved souls are now in heaven,with the LORD. The dead,unsaved,or lost souls are now sleeping,to be awakened for the Great White Throne Judgement when CHRIST returns. They are now in Hades,a place of confinment. After the Judgment,The Devil,the demons,the Anti-Christ,and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Lone Wolfe]

Hell was NEVER meant for people.Hell was ORIGINALLY prepared for the Devil and his angels,the demons. When I witness to people,I tell them that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of unbelief.The thief on the cross was saved at the last minute. However,he was fortunate because he KNEW when he was going to die. That is why,when someone first hears the gospel,one MUST believe,because most of us do not know when we are going to die.
So,technically,GOD does not send anyone to hell. Hell is now empty.The saved souls are now in heaven,with the LORD. The dead,unsaved,or lost souls are now sleeping,to be awakened for the Great White Throne Judgement when CHRIST returns. They are now in Hades,a place of confinment. After the Judgment,The Devil,the demons,the Anti-Christ,and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Where might I look this information up because, I have never heard this version of how things are in reference to Hell & Heaven? What is your source of imformation is what I mean?

 

[blackribbon]

Rev 20...and more specifically verses 11-15 (though the other verses lead up to this).

The place called hades or Abraham's bosom also found in Luke 16: 19-31. This is the place we go when we die while we are waiting for the ultimate judgement. Some call this a parable...but it is the only parable where someone is identified by their given name. I tend to believe that this is a real life story. (and note, this is not Lazarus who was raised from the dead but another man with the same name).

 

[exitstageright]

Rev 20...and more specifically verses 11-15 (though the other verses lead up to this).

The place called hades or Abraham's bosom also found in Luke 16: 19-31. This is the place we go when we die while we are waiting for the ultimate judgement. Some call this a parable...but it is the only parable where someone is identified by their given name. I tend to believe that this is a real life story. (and note, this is not Lazarus who was raised from the dead but another man with the same name).

There is also Matthew 25:41 which states:

Matthew 25:41

New International Version (NIV)

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "

This verse tells us that hell was NOT originally made for people.

 

[Tnmusicman]

never said their "goodness" would have any bearing. All I was stating was that we don't know and unless we are there and the person is screaming at us to shut up about Jesus we won't know. I know and believe that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but since we are not God we cannot and IMO should not be telling people they will go to hell or that their loved one is in hell because they didn't believe.

It just got me thinking because how do we know (we don't) whether they accept Jesus right before they died (like the thief on the cross)?My aunt is a "good" person as in, she gives alot to charity and is very generous to family and doesn't hurt anyone.I know she is a sinner, but to me, I see God sending to hell the truly wicked people that delight in wickedness, not my aunt or possibly my friend's mom.

Okaaaaay, what you said above was that God sends the truly wicked people to hell and that this person you refer to had never hurt anyone and was generous.
When you say something like that it appears to someone else that you are attempting to talk yourself into believing that your beloved family member can't possibly be going to hell. It would be a lie for me to agree with you. It would be a lie for anyone who calls themselves Christian to go along with that just to falsely comfort someone. If you don't want the truth then fine but it seems like you've made your mind up so I suppose it doesn't matter.
I wassent implying you NEEDED comfort but once again, the tone of your post gives the impression you were searching for comfort, otherwise why would you post a comment rather than a question. Usually, one posts a question they are struggling with, not a comment unless they are looking for other Christians who might AGREE with them and you want others to say,"yes, the way you feel is spot on" but it's not if we are to believe the bible.
I'm sorry if you feel this was said in a mean spirited way because it wasent meant to be but I'm not going to lie or tell you something that I don't believe. Of course, keep in mind I did say everything is ultimately up to God which I do believe. Once again, I'm not saying this to be mean spirited but Christians should be honest with everyone.

 

[Tnmusicman]

WOW! I guess he (Tnmusicman) intended for us to really see that post? Talk about going overboard? LOL.

That is something I think about all the time when it comes to both of my parents? I hope and pray that they will be in Heaven but, I am not aware of either of them being saved prior to their deaths?

True, we don't know their hearts or what took place prior to their deaths so, we worry about those things, especially when we become believers and we want to know our loved ones are going to be there with us?

I've always had a difficult time with the idea that child murderers can enter the Kingdom of Heaven if they are saved just before they throw the switch or inject that poison but, that's exactly what Jesus says so, who are we to judge them or question what Jesus has said about the true believers having eternal life???

Are you referring to the size of my font? Because if you are the reason it's a bit larger is because I don't have a computer and everything is done on my phone. When us guys get older sometimes we need a bit of assistance with seeing certain things and this is why I have a larger font, not to embellish my posts or any other reason. Only to make it easier to see.

 

[Tnmusicman]

Btw, do you believe,as the bible tells us, to witness to others? Do you ever tell people that are unsaved about the wonderful hope you have in Jesus??

 

[blackribbon]

Tnmusicman,

Can I suggest that you change the size and font of your postings? It gives the impression that you are almost yelling and is a bit "in your face". I'm guessing that isn't your intention but that is how it comes across.

Everyone,

As for the topic, I know that this is not Biblical but it isn't anti-Biblical either...but after reading the account of a child's near death experience, I think that this isn't quite so cut and dried. I do think we have to chose Christ in order to go to Heaven. That is black and white. I am not so sure that we might not get one last chance to make that decision as we died...I sure wouldn't want to get entrance that way because that is cutting it too close for my tastes (and if I'm wrong...well, not worth it) but I also think that is why it is so important to make sure that every one is exposed to Christ so that they know who is asking at that point.

I also believe that our lives on this side of death measure our reward in Heaven. This is not to say that anyone will have a sub-par place in Heaven, but just that some will have it better based on what they were willing to sacrifice while in our human bodies.

 

[blackribbon]

As for the font issue, I guess you already answered that...I must have missed going all the way to the end of the thread. However, as we welcome you to the conversations (and I mean that), please be aware that it will take time to connect that font with someone who is not really ... well, not yelling.

 

[dayhiker]

What happens when we die is an interesting topic. I remember when I was 12 or so. I had just accepted Christ, was baptized and had tastes His love and mercy for the 1st time. It seems the Holy Spirit had spoken to me that God so loves the world that He will accept anyone who turns to Jesus with no time frame as to when they can accept Christ.

But then I kept hearing preaching that said we had to accept Jesus before we die. So I let that be my view. But recently I been looking for scriptures that say we can only accept Jesus before we die. I've not been able to find one. So I'm going back to believe what the Spirit said to me when I was a kid. As it says in the Psalms, God's wrath is for but a moment, but His love and mercy are everlasting. ( a paraphrase)

 

[Tnmusicman]

Tnmusicman,

Can I suggest that you change the size and font of your postings? It gives the impression that you are almost yelling and is a bit "in your face". I'm guessing that isn't your intention but that is how it comes across.

Everyone,

As for the topic, I know that this is not Biblical but it isn't anti-Biblical either...but after reading the account of a child's near death experience, I think that this isn't quite so cut and dried. I do think we have to chose Christ in order to go to Heaven. That is black and white. I am not so sure that we might not get one last chance to make that decision as we died...I sure wouldn't want to get entrance that way because that is cutting it too close for my tastes (and if I'm wrong...well, not worth it) but I also think that is why it is so important to make sure that every one is exposed to Christ so that they know who is asking at that point.

I also believe that our lives on this side of death measure our reward in Heaven. This is not to say that anyone will have a sub-par place in Heaven, but just that some will have it better based on what they were willing to sacrifice while in our human bodies.

Cutting it too close indeed. Some Christians don't believe in "deathbed conversions" but I'm not so sure. It would seem to us in our human minds that God would frown on it--kind of like living your life as you see fit but at the 11th hour coming to God and making a decision would seem disingenuous but Gods ways are not our ways. I guess God could accept someone's deathbed conversion if their heart were truly broken and truly repentant but probably a lot of people wouldn't get a last chance so one needs to make the decision to follow God now.

 

[blackribbon]

Again...that is also assuming that you have to make the decision before you are physically dead. This isn't as black and white of a point as we tend to believe. If we believe that "death" is the point where we declare a body dead, then Don Piper who tells his story in 90 Minutes in Heaven gets more than one death...and we know that isn't Biblical (Heb 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment). Don Piper had no pulse for at least 90 minutes...if he had a pulse, he would have bled out during that time period. What about Lazarus (as in the brother of Mary and Martha), is he exempt from "destined to die once"...or maybe our real death isn't when our bodies die.

So when is death?

As someone who watched her husband die and has made friends with others who had to touch death up close and person, I don't think it is quite like turning a light to off...it isn't that cut and dried.

And like I said, I thing we are supposed to tell and live the gospel so that people...even those that turn their backs on God...get to know the living God through us. We don't save anyone anyway. Only God can save and He sometimes uses us to reach people. We are to be His instruments...the tools that He uses to accomplish His works (2 Tim 2:21)

(...and hmmm....I need to go back and read some more of 2 Tim 2 ...there is some meat in that chapter...)

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Okaaaaay, what you said above was that God sends the truly wicked people to hell and that this person you refer to had never hurt anyone and was generous.
When you say something like that it appears to someone else that you are attempting to talk yourself into believing that your beloved family member can't possibly be going to hell. It would be a lie for me to agree with you. It would be a lie for anyone who calls themselves Christian to go along with that just to falsely comfort someone. If you don't want the truth then fine but it seems like you've made your mind up so I suppose it doesn't matter.
I wassent implying you NEEDED comfort but once again, the tone of your post gives the impression you were searching for comfort, otherwise why would you post a comment rather than a question. Usually, one posts a question they are struggling with, not a comment unless they are looking for other Christians who might AGREE with them and you want others to say,"yes, the way you feel is spot on" but it's not if we are to believe the bible.
I'm sorry if you feel this was said in a mean spirited way because it wasent meant to be but I'm not going to lie or tell you something that I don't believe. Of course, keep in mind I did say everything is ultimately up to God which I do believe. Once again, I'm not saying this to be mean spirited but Christians should be honest with everyone.

If you knew me, I think about alot of things all the time. My friends have called me a deep thinker. I am analytical and always looking for the "why" even though in most cases with God, we cannot figure out the "why". So I posed a comment because I was thinking about it, and wanted to know what others thought. I never search for people to agree with me or not. I am perfectly capable of thinking on my own and asking God to help me with the rest. Never said anything about you saying anything in a mean spirited way and I do think Christians should be honest with everyone, but I also believe the Holy Spirit is the one that draws people to Christ. I will certainly be His instrument but I, on my own, cannot "convince" anyone to believe or not believe, and if I have to tell them they are going to hell if they don't believe, IMO that's called witnessing by fear and intimidation. I share with people that the Holy Spirit guides me to at appropriate times. I do not go around telling anyone that can hear the sound of my voice if they are not interested or ready to hear. Again, God is God and He needs no help from us. He CHOOSES to use us when He chooses. He can save a wicked child rapist, just as much as my dear old aunt or He can choose to let THEM choose to go to hell.
I don't think we can do ANYTHING to get eternal life with Jesus EXCEPT believe. I would never falsely comfort anyone and tell them that their unbelieving loved one is probably in heaven. I can hope they are, but I have NO proof either way. Again, it was a thought that came into my head, not seeking comfort, just seeking what others thought about it.
People all the time go around saying what a loving, merciful, God we serve (and we do) but then we want to also proclaim God would allow someone to go to hell without the full realization of who He is.

And to exit, you are correct hell was not meant for humans and we are the ones that send ourselves there by refusing to believe in what Jesus did on the cross for us. God never meant us to go there, but he will not stop those hell bent on going there if that's what they choose.

 

[Tnmusicman]

If you knew me, I think about alot of things all the time. My friends have called me a deep thinker. I am analytical and always looking for the "why" even though in most cases with God, we cannot figure out the "why". So I posed a comment because I was thinking about it, and wanted to know what others thought. I never search for people to agree with me or not. I am perfectly capable of thinking on my own and asking God to help me with the rest. Never said anything about you saying anything in a mean spirited way and I do think Christians should be honest with everyone, but I also believe the Holy Spirit is the one that draws people to Christ. I will certainly be His instrument but I, on my own, cannot "convince" anyone to believe or not believe, and if I have to tell them they are going to hell if they don't believe, IMO that's called witnessing by fear and intimidation. I share with people that the Holy Spirit guides me to at appropriate times. I do not go around telling anyone that can hear the sound of my voice if they are not interested or ready to hear. Again, God is God and He needs no help from us. He CHOOSES to use us when He chooses. He can save a wicked child rapist, just as much as my dear old aunt or He can choose to let THEM choose to go to hell.
I don't think we can do ANYTHING to get eternal life with Jesus EXCEPT believe. I would never falsely comfort anyone and tell them that their unbelieving loved one is probably in heaven. I can hope they are, but I have NO proof either way. Again, it was a thought that came into my head, not seeking comfort, just seeking what others thought about it.
People all the time go around saying what a loving, merciful, God we serve (and we do) but then we want to also proclaim God would allow someone to go to hell without the full realization of who He is.

And to exit, you are correct hell was not meant for humans and we are the ones that send ourselves there by refusing to believe in what Jesus did on the cross for us. God never meant us to go there, but he will not stop those hell bent on going there if that's what they choose.

if I have to tell them they are going to hell if they don't believe, IMO that's called witnessing by fear and intimidation

I agree wholeheartedly but what if someone asks you what the consequences are for rejecting God? What if, as a lot of atheists have with me, come out and directly ask you about hell? Someone says" yeah, I know your doctrine states I'm going to hell but I don't believe in hell!" What would you tell that person?

 

[Tnmusicman]

I agree wholeheartedly but what if someone asks you what the consequences are for rejecting God? What if, as a lot of atheists have with me, come out and directly ask you about hell? Someone says" yeah, I know your doctrine states I'm going to hell but I don't believe in hell!" What would you tell that person?

If you knew me, I think about alot of things all the time. My friends have called me a deep thinker. I am analytical and always looking for the "why" even though in most cases with God, we cannot figure out the "why". So I posed a comment because I was thinking about it, and wanted to know what others thought. I never search for people to agree with me or not. I am perfectly capable of thinking on my own and asking God to help me with the rest. Never said anything about you saying anything in a mean spirited way and I do think Christians should be honest with everyone, but I also believe the Holy Spirit is the one that draws people to Christ. I will certainly be His instrument but I, on my own, cannot "convince" anyone to believe or not believe, and if I have to tell them they are going to hell if they don't believe, IMO that's called witnessing by fear and intimidation. I share with people that the Holy Spirit guides me to at appropriate times. I do not go around telling anyone that can hear the sound of my voice if they are not interested or ready to hear. Again, God is God and He needs no help from us. He CHOOSES to use us when He chooses. He can save a wicked child rapist, just as much as my dear old aunt or He can choose to let THEM choose to go to hell.
I don't think we can do ANYTHING to get eternal life with Jesus EXCEPT believe. I would never falsely comfort anyone and tell them that their unbelieving loved one is probably in heaven. I can hope they are, but I have NO proof either way. Again, it was a thought that came into my head, not seeking comfort, just seeking what others thought about it.
People all the time go around saying what a loving, merciful, God we serve (and we do) but then we want to also proclaim God would allow someone to go to hell without the full realization of who He is.

And to exit, you are correct hell was not meant for humans and we are the ones that send ourselves there by refusing to believe in what Jesus did on the cross for us. God never meant us to go there, but he will not stop those hell bent on going there if that's what they choose.

. I do not go around telling anyone that can hear the sound of my voice if they are not interested or ready to hear. Again, God is God and He needs no help from us. He CHOOSES to use us when He chooses.

Well, I am guilty as anyone else for not being diligent at witnessing. If I understand you right you are saying you don't approach people to share your faith. You will tell if asked though, right? See, I'm the same way but I need to work on witnessing because it's what God expects of us. I would say that God may have meant only share your faith with those that ask you but it's pretty clear from a number of verses that we are to approach others.

Mark 16:15
English Standard Version (ESV)
15And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

I, on my own, cannot "convince" anyone to believe or not believe,

No, of course you can't but do you interpret that as you shouldn't even try or only share your faith with those that ask you? You cared enough about your auntie to tell her but she didn't seem interested. Well, just by sharing it with her you have done what's expected of you as a Christian. I didn't say you had to "convince" anyone. You plant the seed and God will take it from there but we are expected to plant the seed, not maintain the leaves on an existing plant ( for lack of a better way to put it )
You are my sister in Christ and I think we should pray for one another as its very difficult to be a Christian in this world sometimes. I understand trying to find the why and I pray you can find the why. It would be great if we all could.