Non-believer + SDA

[re:pit]

Hi all,
This is a bit long, please bear with me.

A few months ago I fell in love with a man. I have known him for a while, but now my feelings for him have grown deeply, and those feelings reciprocated. I believe that fate brought us together and we are meant to be.

He revealed to me that he is "a christian". I was cool with that. I know he had some struggles initially with me being a non-believer and we spent some time apart while he thought about things, but he came back to me in the end. He told me that he would never be able to marry me as an unbeliever, and I would have to convert if things got to that stage. But in the meantime he is happy to keep seeing me - although he said us dating (being "unequally yoked") would be discouraged by his church.

Although I am not a believer and never have been, I have studied the bible before as a curiosity (and have lurked these forums for about a year now), so thought I knew what christianity entailed. I told him the bible says that if my heart is open and receptive of the Holy Spirit it will show me the way to Jesus (does anyone know where that is in the bible? I can't find it at the moment). I asked him what denomination he is - I didn't think it really mattered, he says he is a Seventh Day Adventist, and that didn't mean very much to me at the time.

I have been praying and reading the bible, as this is apparently the way to find Jesus. My boy gave me some Ellen White books - one was Steps-to-Christ which I think is a wonderful book and has helped me a lot. At this stage, I am still not a believer, but would consider it possible for me to become one - (whereas before I thought it all impossible load of nonsense). I am now Agnostic and open to the possibility of a God, rather than an Atheist as I was. I think I can feel that God is listening to my prayers and watching over me, and the holy spirit guiding me. But I'm not sure still.

Anyway - in my studies I came to read more about the Seventh Day Adventist church itself. I won't go into it here (please I don't want to start a flame-throwing contest) but I found out about Ellen White plagiarism, false prophet allegations etc. Most disturbing to me I read was not an Ellen White bashing site (of which I read with a grain of salt) but reading the official church manual, where I see contradictions. The church manual has raised some big questions and I am still searching for answers. Yet I do not want to bring them up with my new boyfriend out of fear of changing him or him thinking I am trying to pull him away from Christ. I know I should probably just be open and bring up my concerns with him, after all communication with the one you love is important. But I would like to find out things for myself first. Maybe I should just go along to church with him and do study with Adventists to clarify things. Being an Adventist is what makes him him. He is part of a family at his church and they give him support in everything he does, the last thing I want is to take that away from him. I am happy for him that he has Jesus. But when we talk about the church, and it is clear to me as an outsider looking in that he is very deeply indoctorined primarily with EGW teachings and those of the bible are secondary. I can see how easily it can happen.

Anyway - I know I will eventually find Jesus, I have faith that the Holy Spirit is helping me . But I don't think that I will be baptised into the Adventist church - I cannot make some of those baptismal vows that are required for entry to that church,they just do not make sense. But I am willing to accept Jesus as my saviour, live a christian life with christian values etc. But that on it's own isn't enough to be an Adventist.

Also I should point out that I have never been so sure of anything in my life than I am now that my new boy and I are meant to be. I care for him so deeply.

Well that's where it's at. I don't know if anyone can help me or how anyone can help me, maybe someone can help me sort through my theological dillemas, or maybe you could just pray for me . Thanks for reading.

 

[tapero]

Dear Reit,

I will pray for you. I don't know much about SDA, (nor the teachings of Ellen White), but that they are my brothers in Christ. Has your boyfriend told you how to become a follower, believer in Christ? That's what helped me; I heard the gospel and came to Christ. The gospel of course is that we are all sinners and that Christ died for our sins, and if we have faith that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected we shall be saved.

I beleive the SDA would teach the same. When we come to Christ, when we believe we confess our sins, and turn away from them. We still continue to sin, but we feel now a conviction from the Holy Spirit. We don't feel right about sinning. God changes us, and we hunger and thirst for His word. I'm glad you are reading the bible because faith in Christ comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God bless you on your walk. I'm so glad you have someone you love too. Take care, Tapero

 

[epy]

maybe someone can help me sort through my theological dillemas, or maybe you could just pray for me

First of all, I would like to congratulate you on thinking things through for yourself. Many people fail to do that before making a commitment. Second, I know next to nothing about SDA teaching, but if you want to talk about it or anything else, send me a private message.

 

[heymikey80]

I read your posting with a deep sense of appreciation. I've had friends in the SDA, and they're Christians -- they just weren't sure I was.

I'm no fan of the SDA. But I'd say this: Ellen White was a good writer, speaker, and leader. She led a church damaged by its own theology into some semblance of light. Quoting others, picking up and agreeing with their logic, etc. makes every bit of sense in such terrible times as her church went through. She needed to carry them through. And she succeeded.

Still she was human. She drew freely from other sources, and probably forgot sometimes where she got ideas. It's not wrong to be forgetful. Plenty of arguments against Ellen White are arguments against her claim to prophecy. But they're not good arguments against her being a good teacher and evangelist, and a practical theologian.

I appreciate that you find your boyfriend indoctrinated, and don't want to change him. If any relationship is meaningful, though, you will change him in some respects. You're right, now may not be the time, as you may be perceived as opposition, or an outright anti-christian.

I do know my discussions finally came down to whether I could reasonably hold my point of view -- and my SDA friend after months realized I was Presbyterian because I'd thought through what it meant in reality. He started understanding my view, I'm sure of that. We didn't convince one another, but in the end we did respect one another.

 

[re:pit]

thanks for your replies.

tapero - My boy has told me how to find christ but I am still confused about how to go about it exactly.

Epy - sometimes I think I think too much for my own good.

heymickey - yep I agree Ellen White's writings are great, I loved Steps to Christ, but am just concerned of the emphasis placed on them.

The rest of this post is me thinking out loud, I am not expecting a response.

What tapero says is what I read in the bible. From the top of my head there is a verse something like this (about the only verse I sort-of know by heart) For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, whoever believes in the son shall not perish but live in everlasting life.

It just does not add up with some other things my boy has told me - like he has told me things such as "only baptised people can go to heaven". I think it says that in the bible too, but I interpret that as baptism being a symbolic acknowledgement of your faith in Jesus - so I don't see it as being required. It's a bit like getting married - it's ceremonial but on it's own does not mean anything but the intention of a person is what matters. So I have consolidated this apparent conflict by thinking baptism and believing are essentially the same concept - one being related to your sincere intentions, the other a symbolic representation and declaration of those intentions. As for the "heaven" bit, does the bible even teach that anyone goes to heaven? I thought it said that people don't go to heaven and it's just for angels. I have a lot to learn.

"God is a fair God" and "you are judged on what you know", and "only those who believe can go to heaven". Maybe it isn't an exclusively SDA thing, but these things don't add up.

Firsty - Why would you go preaching in missioinaries around the world if "you are judged on what you know". By doing that, you are spreading the word, giving more people the opportunity to know and most will probably ignore you - thus you lock them out of heaven by giving them knowledge thus giving the opportunity to ignore it. It is ridiculous to expect someone to believe something just because they told you so.

"God is a fair God" and "only those who believe can go to heaven" doesn't seem consistant either. What happens to me if I die tomorrow never having believed? I won't go to heaven because I don't believe. I may be making a sincere effort to find God - but that is not enough because I never got there - so I can't go to heaven. Would a fair God would do that? Maybe that is fair - it does not seem fair to me - but that is just based on my sense of fairness and not on Gods so that's ok. My boy's answer to that dillema is that "you are judged on what you know". Then we are back to square one .

Meh,I am confused.

The ironic thing is, Ellen White material (while I sort of agree with heymickey in that I think her writings are beautifully written, inspirational and helpful and have led many to God which is a good thing) has made me have more faith in the bible, because as good as her writings are; they have many contradictions and psuedoscience it makes the bible look pretty amazing. Maybe God knew this was the way to get me to have more faith in the bible because he knows how my brain works.

So my plan of attack from here? I have not actually gone to an Adventist church yet, so I am going to go along a few times and listen in. Maybe then I will know if it's for me. I'll see how I go.

 

[tapero]

Hi,

I think it's a great idea to go to the church.

Different churches believe different things about baptism; for example I believe that once we've asked Jesus in our life, and committed our life to Him that we are saved right then. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward heart change.

God bless you on your journey.

Love, Tapero

 

[VerdantTruth]

(see below) x.x;

 

[VerdantTruth]

Er... removed due to tired ranting and butchering of information.

 

[epy]

God shows himself to everyone through His creation, an innate sense of God, etc.(See Romans 1:20) So people who have not heard of Christ as we know Him are still accountable. Although this is between the person and God, I don't think that God would punish a person for believing in Him and doing His will but having very little theological training or none at all. So, missionaries are there to help build on the things people perceive about God. People who have chosen to reject God might not listen just because a person told them. However, someone who knew God to exist might even hunger for what a missionary has to say. Even in the U.S. I have heard about people saying that no one ever told them of Christ or they would have believed sooner.

In regard to not quite believing, I have no idea where God draws the line. The scripture talks about believing, but I don't recall reading any scripture about a particular level of belief being required.

 

[heymikey80]

I'd agree with you there, reit, we struggle at understanding the realities we live in, trying to see how all issues are resolved.

And I too would be concerned if Ellen White is overly relied-on. She can seem almost like a priestess of the SDA. But other denominations, we tend to hold onto pet theologies too. So it may be more intense for an SDA person, but it's not totally absent from any of us. We find an explanation that solves some of our burning problems, and we lean heavily on it.

On your issues, I'd also agree with you there are some weaknesses in the particular theology at baptism and evangelism, but they're not as weak as they may first seem. It's not really appropriate for me to tackle these kinds of questions here I don't think, but there are good responses for the questions you have. And even SDA people have a different way of looking at baptism and evangelism, which changes the context to where these things fit better. For instance I think baptism is really more a practical necessity like the need to sign a marriage license. And the need for evangelism is because God's judgement on anyone outside of Christis by and large a just condemnation, I would think (based on Rom 3:9-19, or 1:18ff, for instance).

SDA advocates may have slightly different views, but I expect they'll have responses that account for some of the concerns you have.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

SDA rightly point out that the Old Testament sabbath was a saturday, not a sunday, but they miss the point that the OT was a foreshadow, a pattern, of the true. Just as God rested from his physical works on the 7th day so we should cease relying on our own abilities and enter into the true rest by receiving God's Spirit and living the new life he brings.

They *already* had the OT sabbath when Jesus came along and said:-
M't:11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
:29: Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
:30: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus was "yoked", led by the Holy Spirit, so, if we receive the same Spirit we will see God's works manifest in us and through us . .

John:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus returning to the Father allowed the Holy Spirit to indwell the likes of you and me . . .

Joh:7:37: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
:39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So, when *was* the Holy Spirit given ? . . .
Ac:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . . 33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . . . :39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The "speaking in tongues" is NOT for preaching to people - 1 Corinthians 14v2, 4 plainly shows this, as does Acts 2v12 - the over-hearers were left in doubt and confusion so they stopped speaking in tongues and started to speak *to* the crowd in the common learned language - *then* they understood and ended up receiving the same as the 120 diosciples.

Interestingly, Isaiah prophesies:-
28:11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
:12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Paul quotes this in 1 Corinthians 14v21-22 and affirms that it is a prophecy of speaking in tongues which "edified" the speaker, it allows God to minister *his* love to your soul so you find power, rest and refreshing.
* * * * *

The SDA have not entered into this true rest.

 

[heron]

Your hunches about baptism reflect the difference between entering the faith clean and unbiased, vs. living many years under strong doctrine.

I think it's important for everyone to get out and take in a broader variety of theology, so they don't feel guilty for questioning those little quirks that apparently made sense to everyone else.

Heymikey mentioned overreliance on White...your discussions with your boyfriend might help him discern the truths from the errors. Every church has its errors, even scandals. We're humans fumbling with something precious. I wouldn't totally toss one denomination based on history that might have been rectified. But be honest with people close to you about specific misgivings.

Feel comfortable with where you are now. It's a good place. You're questioning, believing, growing... you are not in a lesser place. You are where God has brought you to at a right time.

You seem to have a good understanding of baptism. Yes, Jesus preached baptism. So did John the Baptist before Him. But look at the example of the thief on the cross beside Jesus. The thief's recognition of Jesus' diety allowed him the promise, "Today you will be with me in paradise." He had no training, no righteous life to back him up. He just recognized Jesus for who He was.

And that addresses much of your concern about the lightly-informed. I believe that God reveals Himself to people even more than missionairies do.

I would tell your boyfriend that you don't feel comfortable being baptized SDA. Find a neutral territory. Tent meetings often hold outdoor baptisms (bring a change of clothes!)...home Bible study groups hold baptisms (Jesus didn't say you need an ordained preacher to do it), and some other denominations might allow you baptism in their church...although some might only baptise regular attendees.

But I am willing to accept Jesus as my saviour, live a christian life with christian values etc.

If a primary reason for baptism is public declaration, then I think your comments above cover much of your public declaration (cart before the horse?). I wouldn't ignore the baptism--some churches make it into a very beautiful event, with close friends and family members praying over you. (And many others have a very short ritual.)

If you fully decide to become a Christian, let us know! We will celebrate with you!

Romans 10:9
"The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"
--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

You asked about the process for becoming a Christian. It's kind of vague, isn't it? Everyone has their own story or their own method. But scripturally, what you see above is what God suggests.

Decide in your heart. Tell God what you're thinking about that-- talk to Him about your concerns about that church, and ask Him to provide a way that makes sense to you. Offer God your life -- allowing Him to work in you and through you. Make a conscious declaration to yourself and to God that you want to be part of His Kingdom, His family.

God has offered cleansing and redemption for every guilt and embarrassment and hindrance, by offering His Son to cover your debt. He has paid the price for any offense. Accept His offer.

Sometimes it's hard to take a gift, or hard to see yourself as needing cleansing... but this is an important part of living the Christian walk--asking for help, depending on Him, admitting our mistakes.

This is what He wants. As your heavenly Father, He desires good things for you, so don't be shy asking for His assistance.

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