Noah's Ark

[Kate84]

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been discussed, I expect it has but I haven't found it. I was watching the Joanna Lumley: The quest for Noah's Ark documentary and was surprised to learn about a tablet that was found written in the earliest form of writing, cuneiform. It was written over a thousand years before the bible, and includes the Babylonian story of the flood. Another tablet is another thousand years older and an older version of the same story. Apparently the gods took an oath not to tell anybody that they were going to send a great flood, but the god, Aya, who was responsible for the idea of creating human beings didn't want his creation to be destroyed. He gave one of his devotees a dream telling him to pull down his house and build a boat and put his family and animals on it. The rain and flood came and all mankind was turned to clay, the man and his family were the only survivors and the boat came to rest somewhere in eastern Turkey, like Noah's boat.
If it has been discussed before can someone help me find the thread please?
I know this doesn't disprove Noah's story, it's just a bit weird that it's so similar.

 

[JackRT]

There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 25 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 5600 BC. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event.

 

[Kate84]

Heya, thanks for all that info That's very interesting. Yeh, you would think there would be evidence of a more recent one.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

It was written over a thousand years before the bible, and includes the Babylonian story of the flood

I think it would be surprising if the Babylonians DIDN'T have their own version of the flood story, since they were also descended from Noah. Surely the story of the flood must have been passed down through all branches of his family, in various degrees of corruption.

I am not sure the age of the tablet is relevant. The events described in the Torah and in Sumerian cuneiforms like the one described took place long before they were written down. To my knowledge, the oldest written copy that we have of the Torah is in one or more of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were written sometime after 250 BC, but we know that it describes many historical events that we can confirm took place long before that. There are probably Babylonian cuneiforms still older than the one they found, that are lost, just as there are much older manuscripts of the Torah that are also lost.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for starting the conversation - very interesting stuff

 

[Kate84]

Thank you! I've been searching all over the internet and didn't find an answer like yours. I wasn't thinking of it in that way at all.

 

[SkyWriting]

I know this doesn't disprove Noah's story, it's just a bit weird that it's so similar.

Having a second version of the story adds to it's validity.

 

[Kate84]

Thanks Yeh I have been thinking of it that way since Gregory opened my mind!

 

[Ray Salmon]

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been discussed, I expect it has but I haven't found it. I was watching the Joanna Lumley: The quest for Noah's Ark documentary and was surprised to learn about a tablet that was found written in the earliest form of writing, cuneiform. It was written over a thousand years before the bible, and includes the Babylonian story of the flood. Another tablet is another thousand years older and an older version of the same story. Apparently the gods took an oath not to tell anybody that they were going to send a great flood, but the god, Aya, who was responsible for the idea of creating human beings didn't want his creation to be destroyed. He gave one of his devotees a dream telling him to pull down his house and build a boat and put his family and animals on it. The rain and flood came and all mankind was turned to clay, the man and his family were the only survivors and the boat came to rest somewhere in eastern Turkey, like Noah's boat.
If it has been discussed before can someone help me find the thread please?
I know this doesn't disprove Noah's story, it's just a bit weird that it's so similar.

The main thing is Jesus referred to Noah and the flood and so did the apostles as a reality

 

[SkyWriting]

It was written over a thousand years before the bible, and includes the Babylonian story of the flood. Another tablet is another thousand years older and an older version of the same story.

This is only an issue when the subject is fiction.
In that case, it would mean somebody later is
plagiarizing. In the case of actual history,
it's a help, not a problem.

 

[Job8]

I know this doesn't disprove Noah's story, it's just a bit weird that it's so similar.

One should expect that the story of the Flood would be known throughout the Middle East as well as the world, and there would be similarities to what is revealed in the Bible. The big difference is that the pagans embellished their accounts with myths and legends and gods etc. whereas the Bible has a sober, factual and historical narrative, since God was directly involved with Noah and his ark. This is the only account which is not mythical.

You can find a list of flood myths here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths. Almost every nation has a flood myth, all the way to India and China.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yeh, you would think there would be evidence of a more recent one.

That's like saying, if Jesus healed a blind man, you should expect to see
Godly stitches where a new eye was sewn in. Or if Jesus turned water
into wine, you should look for smashed grapes in the area.

Normally, we don't look for evidence of how God did things.

 

[JackRT]

whereas the Bible has a sober, factual and historical narrative, since God was directly involved with Noah and his ark. This is the only account which is not mythical.

Speaking as both a Christian and as a scientist I do not think the flood narrative is at all factual or historical. Sober? perhaps. I am pleased though that you realize that much of the bible is legendary, allegorical and mythological. And folklore too as Rabbi Moses Maimonides has pointed out.

 

[Job8]

Speaking as both a Christian and as a scientist I do not think the flood narrative is at all factual or historical. Sober? perhaps. I am pleased though that you realize that much of the bible is legendary, allegorical and mythological. And folklore too as Rabbi Moses Maimonides has pointed out.

Jack,
Since you are a scientist, you would appreciate The Genesis Flood by Whitcomb and Morris. They, along with countless other Christians, treat the Flood narrative as factual and historical. And why not? Who gave Moses that narrative?

 

[mindlight]

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been discussed, I expect it has but I haven't found it. I was watching the Joanna Lumley: The quest for Noah's Ark documentary and was surprised to learn about a tablet that was found written in the earliest form of writing, cuneiform. It was written over a thousand years before the bible, and includes the Babylonian story of the flood. Another tablet is another thousand years older and an older version of the same story. Apparently the gods took an oath not to tell anybody that they were going to send a great flood, but the god, Aya, who was responsible for the idea of creating human beings didn't want his creation to be destroyed. He gave one of his devotees a dream telling him to pull down his house and build a boat and put his family and animals on it. The rain and flood came and all mankind was turned to clay, the man and his family were the only survivors and the boat came to rest somewhere in eastern Turkey, like Noah's boat.
If it has been discussed before can someone help me find the thread please?
I know this doesn't disprove Noah's story, it's just a bit weird that it's so similar.

The fact of the flood is not denied in these tablets but clearly its meaning is lost on these people.

Noah was still alive when Abraham was around and his son Shem survived 500 years after the flood and died 150 years after Noah. There was no need to write stuff down while a living eyewitness could still be consulted. That oral tradition , finally written down under inspired conditions by Moses ( a man who spoke to God face to face) does contradict these alternate tablets though and especially in terms of the glory given to God. Maybe this was one of the reasons God called Abram out of what would become Babylon before its idolatries were full grown.

 

[mindlight]

There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 25 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 5600 BC. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event.

If you ignore the fact of a global flood which probably destroyed every structure it overturned in its ferocity and which laid the fundamental geological structures we see today then dating stuff as being 3000 years before the flood becomes nonsensical. Quite simply they misread stuff that cannot be read precisely and call that a proof.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you ignore the fact of a global flood which probably destroyed every structure it overturned in its ferocity and which laid the fundamental geological structures we see today then dating stuff as being 3000 years before the flood becomes nonsensical.

According to the scriptures, there was no wind or waves.
There is no mention of a storm or even rocking of the boat.

 

[Hoghead1]

There are any one of a number of creation=science people arguing they can scientifically prove there was a flood. Problem is, they mishandle and misrepresent science. Creation science was, is, and always be nothing but a fraud. I know that many fellow Christians fall for it. However, not all Christians are on the right. In liberal Christianity, we have no trouble reconciling God, evolution, and Scripture.

 

[Job8]

Problem is, they mishandle and misrepresent science.

Mishandling science is not nearly as serious as mishandling the Word of God, and dismissing the creation account. Science is fallible, the Bible is infallible.

While creationism has its merits, all one has to believe is what God has said regarding creation as well as all creatures. CREATURES DID NOT NEED TO EVOLVE BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY CREATED PERFECTLY FOR THEIR FUNCTIONS. That's precisely what Scripture says since after all the creative works were finished, it is noted (Genesis 1:31): And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. "Very good" for God -- who is perfect -- means perfect. Man DEVOLVED after creation, so today you have human animals slaughtering innocents left and right for absolutely no reason. Even wild animals are not as rabid, and only kill to survive.

When we move on to the Genesis account of Noah's Flood, everything is described as God saw it, and as God caused Noah to build the ark, save his family and all the creatures, and then begin again with God's plan for mankind. There is economy, precision, and accuracy in everything written down by Divine inspiration. Moses was not there but God was there, and God's authority stands behind the Bible account. The myths and legends in all the world are exactly what those words mean -- myths and legends. So on one hand we have an authoritative, factual and historical narrative (albeit very succinct), and on the other hand we have all kinds of fanciful stories associated with the flood.

 

[Hoghead1]

Oh, baloney. The only person here mishandling something is you. You are abusing Scripture and show little understanding of science. The basic problem here is that you are resting your whole position on a fallible premise: the inerrancy of Scripture. Note I said "theory," because that is exactly what it is: a human-made theory of how God may be related to Scripture. One dare not question this theory, as those who hold with it assume their dogmas must be believed in in order to be saved. My view is that this is dishonest,. The inerrancy theory is simply a collection of human-based guesstimations how God and Scripture interconnect. It may be right, it may be wrong. Like any possible fallible human theory, it should not be deified, it should be checked out. When I did so, going on the hard data, the texts themselves, it simply did not check out. Wh8ile the right wing may damn me to Hell, I simply moved to a more viable alternative theory of God and Scripture. Sorry if I dumped on one of their sacred cows. I have no problem reconciling God, evolution, and a very errant Scripture. I can easily assume that God is simply content with an errant Scripture and therefore so should I. It may seem bizarre that God has this errant Scripture, but he has never explained this, because we are not entitled to know and therefore should stop fussing and accept it. It could be that the authors of Scripture were, after all, fallible human beings with their share of prejudices, and that the Holy Spirit does not cause a miracle by which we or they are not human and subject to error. Bottom line: There is not just one approach to Scripture in Christianity that you have to kowtow to or else.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Most history-of-the-bible debates at the moment focus on David/Solomon. Everything before this period (Iron Age IIa) is understood to be mythical or legendary and most certainly not history. The David/Solomon era is currently a debated issue in that there are some scholars (notably the biblical minimalists) who deny that there ever was a United Monarchy, their interlocutors (notably people like Israel Finkelstein) argue that there may have been a historical David but that the stories about him have embellished considerably and that the historical David was something of a bandit lord.

There are no reputable historians who are seriously contending that there was a historical Noah. Noah is the stuff of myth, of two gods Elohim and Yhwh, one angry at humanity, probably of the blending of categories (the sons of gods and the daughters of men producing hybrid beings), and this deity decides to send a flood. Elohim is the more merciful deity, he seeks out to save Noah. The text is rather messy in that there are some dubious verbal structures in it which shows the attempt of the redactor in trying to force the two deities into one, this was mistaken by the Documentary hypothesis for two documents in the past but I think there's good reason to doubt that.