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Yes, I have read about Craig and in a more extent about Luther and his ideas, but not those in praticular you mention.I'll take that as a no, you haven't read Craig or Luther.
Your "reason" will be the cause of your hell.Yes, I admit I know little about Orthodoxy.
ology
a subject of study; a branch of knowledge.
I find that choice of word to describe something that isn't a study rather confusing. It seems that we aren't using the word to mean even remotely the same thing. I think that we should just stop here.
I'm relieved to be so "pagan". I can't imagine the hell of renouncing reason.
eudaimonia,
Mark
No, you didn't ask anything, you just came to twist my words without having any idea about what I was talking about.So... when faced with people asking you for "reason" in regard to your position, you retreat to your "purify your heart and pray" assertions. And when you have to justify that, you revert to "you haven't even read a book about it - your limited reason does offer nothing for the discussion". And all that evading while deriding your opposite. Impressive!
Well, if you really think that this kind of arrogance is a sign of a "pure heart"... I am glad I don't have it.
This is not fundamentally dissimilar from Craig's line of thought:The same as the position in the West which seems deeply anti-spiritual. Let me explain it, Orthodoxy puts reason and intellect in their place, a fairly secondary place, and why is that? Because our intellect is something created, and through it we cannot discover God since our reason is limited and God is transcendent, so, in order to believe in and find God, Orthodoxy follows the empirical way, the way of experiencing. The same way the apostles saw Jesus's uncreated light at Tabor, the same way the orthodox try to purify ourselves enough in order to see it, through deep prayer. It's not a secret or some form of weird practice, even Jesus clearly says it: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
I know this seems odd for someone in the West because of their dependence on reason, logic and intellect, but in order to enter in the sacred space of apophatic theology, of actually seeing God through theoria one must learn to make their reason, logic and intellect, subordinate to their hearts.
William Lane Craig said:I have argued that the role of rational argumentation and evidence in knowing Christianity to be true is the role of a servant. The primary way in which we know that Christianity is true is through the self-authenticating witness of God’s Spirit, and while reason and evidence and argument can be used to confirm that conclusion, it cannot be properly used to subvert that conclusion.
Why should I read them? That would involve using my intellect, which is bad apparently.Yes, I have read about Craig and in a more extent about Luther and his ideas, but not those in praticular you mention.
Did you read St. Simeon the New Theologian, St. Gregory Palamas, St. Silouan the Athonite? These three talk very much and very well about the subject we are talking about, please give them a try.
Your "reason" will be the cause of your hell.
I'm relieved to be so "pagan". I can't imagine the hell of renouncing reason.
eudaimonia,
Mark
It's not so much a matter of divorcing faith from reason, but prioritising faith over reason.You could be a Methodist. We do not divorce faith from reason.
This seems to be the main opposition to belief in God.
Is a 0.5% chance (subjectively assessed) that God exists - and I think Sam Harris holds this belief - a form of theism?
You could be a Methodist. We do not divorce faith from reason.
How can you say so? I did not say intellect is bad, I didn't say we shouldn't use it, lol. Since you can not have a spiritual life for yourself because you don't believe in it, you should read about how others had a spiritual life, but that's it, only reading, it won't deificate you or take you away from passion because study is study.Why should I read them? That would involve using my intellect, which is bad apparently.
I'm very passionate about what I study. I also deny that atheists are closed to the "spiritual," though I don't define "spiritual" as synonymous with "supernatural."How can you say so? I did not say intellect is bad, I didn't say we shouldn't use it, lol. Since you can not have a spiritual life for yourself because you don't believe in it, you should read about how others had a spiritual life, but that's it, only reading, it won't deificate you or take you away from passion because study is study.
Again, this is fundamentally no different to what Craig is saying, and Craig isn't an Orthodox Christian.Intellect is bad only when it's over used for everything, orthodox christians, since the very beginning (palamism is a doctrine that exists from the very beginning of christianity, it's the core), have reached God through it, and menawhile, you "rationalists" are in atheism, and those who are christians there in the West use their intellects to formulate their own theories about God based on speculation which gives birth to "denominations", like Jean Calvin did, Luther, Zwingli... all using their intellects to speculate about God, and Richard Dawkins uses the same intellect to go against God, so the human intellect is blind when overused, it's only useful when put into the light of God's service.
People are just atheists because they don't know what God is.
I have never met an atheist that knows theology, patristics, dogmatics, hesychasm, hamartiology, soteriology, eschatology and lots of words that are unknown to most christians out there. When I was an atheist was because I was ignorant, and I am not lying if I say most of the atheists out there are ignorants, because no matter how much you think you know, how much philosophy, how much Richard Dawkins, how much Christopher Hitchens you have read because they are as blind as you.
Tell me where and what does Craig say that is exactly the same as Orthodox Christianity. It would be no surprise, Orthodox Christians follows these methods since the very beggining of christianity because this one is the way christianity is in essence, I am referring to the Fathers of the Desert, who explained it very well in the philocalic readings, centuries III to IV.I'm very passionate about what I study. I also deny that atheists are closed to the "spiritual," though I don't define "spiritual" as synonymous with "supernatural."
Again, this is fundamentally no different to what Craig is saying, and Craig isn't an Orthodox Christian.
I seriously doubt that you actually know God in such a way that you talk about Him, tell me, how is Jesus Christ indistinguishable from any other deity?I would argue that it is just the opposite. People are atheists because God is indistinguishable from a deity that people have made up. Sagan famously wrote about this in his essay "The Dragon in My Garage".
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
With all of that knowledge, can you present to us any verifiable evidence for the existence of God?
See the quote I posted.Tell me where and what does Craig say that is exactly the same as Orthodox Christianity.
I seriously doubt that you actually know God in such a way that you talk about Him, tell me, how is Jesus Christ indistinguishable from any other deity?
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