NO satan or satan???

[christian1488]

What is Satan?

The word devil does not appear in the KJV until the book of Matthew!
The word satan does not appear in the KJV until 1 Chronicles!

satan/devil questions????

How is there a ''Satan'' a supposed fallen angel,defeated by Michael yet this ''Satan'' is omnipresent,yet angels are NOT omnipresent,yet keep in mind before satan was a fallen angel he was an angel?


SATAN IN JOB

Job 2:3:And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 19:21:Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

it was God who brought these things upon Job!
The only thing satan did was give Job boils!!!!!(Job 2:7)

Satan in the hebrew can be translated:adversary,an opponent - satan could just as easily be a man!!!!
Look it up in a strongs concordance...no 7854 hebrew

EZEKIEL 28

Ezekiel 28 does not prove Satan was in the garden of Eden.
Tyrus in Ezekiel is 6865 Tsor tsore or Tsowr {tsore}; the same as 6864; a rock; Tsor, a place in Palestine:--Tyre, Tyrus.
In the KJV it is ''Tyrus''

Ezekiel 28:1-2: 1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: - KJV

This was against Tyre not Satan.In the NIV is has a heading ''A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre''

Eden! - read Ezekiel 27:23:Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.

2 Kings 19:11 - 12:Surely you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all the countries, destroying them completely. And will you be delivered? 12 Did the gods of the nations

that were destroyed by my predecessors deliver them—the gods of Gozan, Harran, Rezeph and the people of Eden who were in Tel Assar? - NIV

What's this? ''the people of Eden ''

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth

Men can be ''anointed''

Isaiah 45:1:Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; - KJV

Revelation 12War in heaven? if there was then read v 1 of ch 12
''And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

If we take v 7-9 literally then we have to take the verse before that literally also...

 

[St_Worm2]

... ''Satan'' is omnipresent ...

Why do you believe Satan is "omnipresent"?

Oh, and welcome to CF ..

Yours and His,
David

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,
and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?"
Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth,
and from walking up and down on it."
Job 1:6-7​

 

[christian1488]

Why do you believe Satan is "omnipresent"?

Oh, and welcome to CF ..

Yours and His,
David

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,
and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?"
Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth,
and from walking up and down on it."
Job 1:6-7​

Satan is NOT omnipresent but to make people sin he would have to be?
We can't go around blaming a so called satan...
When it is man who sins

James 1:13-15:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

What is the tempter? It is man's own
lust or desire.

James 4:1-2:1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.


Jeremiah 17:9-10:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


If we take that literally, we could read
it to mean that the heart of man is the
most deceitful and wicked thing upon the
earth.



SATAN IN JOB

Job 1:6-7,the verse you wrote,Satan in the hebrew means ''an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand.''

It could Just as easily be applied to a man i.e an adversary etc etc

Why would satan come before God???????
The only thing satan did in Job was give Job boils....and a man can give another man boils.....

 

[Jpark]

2 Chronicles 21:1 Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

Psalm 78:49 He sent upon them His burning anger, Fury and indignation and trouble, A band of destroying angels.'

2 Samuel 24:17 Then David spoke to the LORD when he saw the angel who was striking down the people, and said, “Behold, it is I who have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong; but these sheep, what have they done? Please let Your hand be against me and against my father’s house.”

1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but as he was about to destroy it, the LORD saw and was sorry over the calamity, and said to the destroying angel, “It is enough; now relax your hand.” And the angel of the LORD was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

1 Samuel 5:11 For there was a deadly confusion throughout the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.

1 Cor. 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Satan is not a man. Satan is a fallen angel and God's instrument. And his involvement in Job's testing was not a challenge to God.

BUT that doesn't mean that Satan is God. The Holy Spirit is also called the hand of God in multiple instances (and it should be noted noted how the hand of God is used (i.e. 1 Samuel 4:8, 2 Chronicles 30:12)), hence, indicating that the expression, "hand of God" means to be under the service of God.

To be more specific, like a puppet (NOT an active force).

On the other hand, the Holy Spirit is God (obviously; 1 Cor. 2:11; Matt. 24:36) and is Jesus (1 John 5:6; 1 Cor. 15:45) so He has a will.

But Satan doesn't. He needs fallen angels because he's under judgment. He's a chained lion.

And I agree with the others. Satan is NOT omnipresent or omniscient. He's an opportunist but there are times when God will relate to him events and such things.

 

[St_Worm2]

Satan is NOT omnipresent but to make people sin he would have to be?
We can't go around blaming a so called satan...
When it is man who sins

Satan cannot "make" Christians sin, though the Bible tells us he has, "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the Gospel" (2 Cor. 4:4). And it is the Bible that refers to him as "the tempter" (Matt 4:3).

James 1:13-15:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

What is the tempter? It is man's own
lust or desire.

While James makes it clear that we end up sinning because we allow ourselves to be carried away by our desires, he makes no mention here of what or who may have played a part in sparking those desires. What he does make clear in James 4:7 however is that we are to "resist the Devil" ... as do St. Paul and St. Peter (Eph 4:27; 6:11; 1 Pet 5:8).

Job 1:6-7,the verse you wrote,Satan in the hebrew means ''an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand.''

It could Just as easily be applied to a man i.e an adversary etc etc

Why would satan come before God???????
The only thing satan did in Job was give Job boils....and a man can give another man boils.....

On the contrary, if you read Job 1:13-22 you'll find that Satan caused many other atrocities to occur in Job's life prior to the "boils". As to why Satan would come before God, he is also known as "the accuser of the brethren" (Rev 12:10). He was just 'doing his thing'!!

BTW, my point with Job 1:6-7 was really aimed at showing that Satan was not "omnipresent". Those who are omnipresent do not "go to and fro" .. (see Job 1:7)

One last thing about Satan in the OT, in your opening post you said, "The word satan does not appear in the KJV until 1 Chronicles!" While it's true that 1 Chronicles does precede Job in the order of books contained in the Bible, it does not precede Job chronologically. Job, and the events contained within that book, are considered to be some of the very oldest in the Bible, preceded only by the book of Genesis.

One final thought, it's been interesting to see the number of Satan defenders here of late. All you really need to know about Satan however is what God has already told us about him. For instance that:

He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44
​

And through St. John we also learn that:

1) "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning" ... and also that:

2) "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil" 1 John 3:8
​

With what we know of Satan directly from God, why all the hubbub?

--David

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The devil doesn't make us sin. The devil can tempt us by appealing to our weak and base nature however, what Scripture calls the "lusts of the flesh" or in theology our concupiscence--that inward, selfish, self-gratifying desire to fulfill our own wants at the expense of others.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[christian1488]

David -

You still don't get my point about satan in Job - It was God who did those thing's NOT satan!

Job 19:21:Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 2:3:And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Where does it say ''satan did these things??????''The only thing satan caused was boils,God caused the things prior to that.Why would God give satan power????(Job 2:3) to do that to Job?

Satan could be translated adversarly so it could have been a ''man''

And how could there be a satan when there was no war in heaven?

The war in heaven was symbolic..

From what I gathered satan came from the war in heaven defeated by Michael yet if there was a literal war in heaven,you would also have to consider these facts:

*And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

A literal woman,clothed with a literal sun and literal moon under her feet and a literal crown of twelve stars...

Do you know how big stars are up close??????

*And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

A literal dragon with literally seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns...

This would destroy the earth as we know it!!!!

*And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Literal....

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If this was a literal war then the other verses would have to be LITERAL!!!!

John 1:29:The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Did Jesus destroy the devil or take away sin????

READ ALL OF JOHN 8 DO NOT TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT.....

How exactly am I a ''Satan defenders?''
I say there was no satan that it is man's own lusts and desires and we give too much credit to a so called fallen angel..

You can't have God and Satan...
That is Idol worship!
Giving belief to someone other than God saying that there is someone equal of God who takes care of the bad...

Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Get yourself a good strong's concordance and study this..is satan really that important or do you Just want someone to blame for your sins????

Try and find a way around the war in heaven and consider it all has to be literal - - No war in heaven,No satan...

One final thought...

To your verse 1) "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning"

Is that not stating we are all satans children not God's?
I think your taking it out of context.....who does not practice sin...do you? read verses 7 and 9...

 

[St_Worm2]

You still don't get my point about satan in Job - It was God who did those thing's NOT satan!

There is no question that God ordained (allowed) Satan the freedom to do whatever he wished to Job, except to:

1) Harm him physically in any way (Job 1):

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he *has* is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." Job 1:12
​

2) To kill him (Job 2):

So the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. Job 2:6-7​

​

Why would God give satan power????(Job 2:3) to do that to Job?

The answer to those questions (particularly the latter one) is at the heart of what the book of Job is all about, so I will let you discover those answers for yourself. Directly however, it was because Satan challenged God's claims about the kind of man Job was, so God allowed Satan to test Job.

Satan could be translated adversarly so it could have been a ''man''

And how could there be a satan when there was no war in heaven?

The war in heaven was symbolic..

Please refresh my mind, where in the book of Job is a "war in Heaven" mentioned?

From what I gathered satan came from the war in heaven defeated by Michael yet if there was a literal war in heaven,you would also have to consider these facts:

*And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

A literal woman,clothed with a literal sun and literal moon under her feet and a literal crown of twelve stars...

Do you know how big stars are up close??????

*And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

A literal dragon with literally seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns...

This would destroy the earth as we know it!!!!

*And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Literal....

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If this was a literal war then the other verses would have to be LITERAL!!!!

For the moment, forget about the actual meaning of all those verses you just mentioned above and just answer this, how do the end times prophesies from Revelation have anything to do with what was going on with Satan and God in the book of Job 2000 years before the birth of Christ?

John 1:29:The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Did Jesus destroy the devil or take away sin????

Yes to both! Why do you believe He has not?

READ ALL OF JOHN 8 DO NOT TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT.....

Please explain further. I've read John 8 many, many times, and the 44th verse in the context of my post means the same thing to me that it always has. Please explain how you believe I have altered the meaning of John 8:44 by posting it by itself.

How exactly am I a ''Satan defenders?''
I say there was no satan that it is man's own lusts and desires and we give too much credit to a so called fallen angel..

You are free to say and believe whatever you want, and there are others who believe as you do. The church does not however, which is something you might want to consider!!

You can't have God and Satan...

That is Idol worship!

Actually, it would be "Satan" worship, and there are those who do that even today.

Giving belief to someone other than God saying that there is someone equal of God who takes care of the bad...

I never said nor meant to imply that Satan was God's equal, far from it. I do believe there is evil in the world and that Satan, like many other creatures, is evil and does evil things, but only those things that God allows him to do. There is no "Yin and Yang" in Christianity, no evil creature equal to a good God. Just a God who allows for the existence of free will and thus a God who allows for the existence of evil as well.

Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Get yourself a good strong's concordance and study this..is satan really that important or do you Just want someone to blame for your sins????

I don't blame anyone for my sins, not Satan, and certainly not God. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't to take seriously the Bible's oft repeated admonition to stand firm against the Devil and his schemes (Ephesians 6:10-11, James 4:7, etc.).

One final thought...

To your verse 1) "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning"

Is that not stating we are all satans children not God's?
I think your taking it out of context.....who does not practice sin...do you? read verses 7 and 9...

I used to "practice" sin, but that was before I became a Christian. I still sin today, but there is a difference in sinning and then repenting of your sins ... as Christians normally do ... and 'living in' or "practicing" sin. God's children (sadly) can and do commit sins, but as 1 John states, "the one who practices sin, is of the devil".

Yours and His,
David

 

[Jpark]

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If this was a literal war then the other verses would have to be LITERAL!!!!

Good point.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
Mark 9:29 And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”
Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
Dan. 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
Dan. 10:20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.

Spiritual warfare is very real. This is evidently the proper interpretation.

How exactly am I a ''Satan defenders?''
I say there was no satan that it is man's own lusts and desires and we give too much credit to a so called fallen angel..

James 3:15-16 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.

1 Cor. 14:13 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

Even if it was man's own lusts and desires, that doesn't mean we should pinpoint it on God as you seem to be doing. We can attribute it to God (Isaiah 45:7) but we can't blame God.

 

[christian1488]

There is no question that God ordained (allowed) Satan the freedom to do whatever he wished to Job, except to:

1) Harm him physically in any way (Job 1):

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he *has* is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." Job 1:12
​

2) To kill him (Job 2):

So the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. Job 2:6-7​

​

The answer to those questions (particularly the latter one) is at the heart of what the book of Job is all about, so I will let you discover those answers for yourself. Directly however, it was because Satan challenged God's claims about the kind of man Job was, so God allowed Satan to test Job.





Please refresh my mind, where in the book of Job is a "war in Heaven" mentioned?




For the moment, forget about the actual meaning of all those verses you just mentioned above and just answer this, how do the end times prophesies from Revelation have anything to do with what was going on with Satan and God in the book of Job 2000 years before the birth of Christ?



Yes to both! Why do you believe He has not?



Please explain further. I've read John 8 many, many times, and the 44th verse in the context of my post means the same thing to me that it always has. Please explain how you believe I have altered the meaning of John 8:44 by posting it by itself.

You are free to say and believe whatever you want, and there are others who believe as you do. The church does not however, which is something you might want to consider!!



Actually, it would be "Satan" worship, and there are those who do that even today.



I never said nor meant to imply that Satan was God's equal, far from it. I do believe there is evil in the world and that Satan, like many other creatures, is evil and does evil things, but only those things that God allows him to do. There is no "Yin and Yang" in Christianity, no evil creature equal to a good God. Just a God who allows for the existence of free will and thus a God who allows for the existence of evil as well.



I don't blame anyone for my sins, not Satan, and certainly not God. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't to take seriously the Bible's oft repeated admonition to stand firm against the Devil and his schemes (Ephesians 6:10-11, James 4:7, etc.).



I used to "practice" sin, but that was before I became a Christian. I still sin today, but there is a difference in sinning and then repenting of your sins ... as Christians normally do ... and 'living in' or "practicing" sin. God's children (sadly) can and do commit sins, but as 1 John states, "the one who practices sin, is of the devil".

Yours and His,
David

My answers in the bold...

There is no question that God ordained (allowed) Satan the freedom to do whatever he wished to Job, except to:

1) Harm him physically in any way (Job 1):

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he *has* is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." Job 1:12

2) To kill him (Job 2):


So the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. Job 2:6-7
Satan only gave him boil,God did the rest!!!

Job 1:11:But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 1:21:And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job 19:6-13:6Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

7Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

8He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.

9He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.

10He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.

11He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.

12His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.

13He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me.
Who is Job saying caused all of these
calamities? Job says that God did it.

Job 42:7-8:7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

8Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
God says that Job spoke right. He then
tells Job's friends to offer a burnt offering
because, as He says in verse eight: “ye
have not spoken of me the thing which is
right, like my servant Job.” These men did
make an offering because God had told
them to,

The answer to those questions (particularly the latter one) is at the heart of what the book of Job is all about, so I will let you discover those answers for yourself. Directly however, it was because Satan challenged God's claims about the kind of man Job was, so God allowed Satan to test Job.

IT DOES NOT MAKE GOD SOVEREIGN TO SHARE HIS POWER OR HAND IT OVER TO SATAN!!!!!


Please refresh my mind, where in the book of Job is a "war in Heaven" mentioned?


You do not understand do you?
In Revelations there is war in heaven,so if there is no war in heaven there is no satan and we are forced to look at satan from a different point of view,perhaps adversary,a man etc etc
For the moment, forget about the actual meaning of all those verses you just mentioned above and just answer this, how do the end times prophesies from Revelation have anything to do with what was going on with Satan and God in the book of Job 2000 years before the birth of Christ?
They are not end time prophecies!
There is no war in heaven only war on earth - -that is why there is no satan!
The war in heaven deals with satans so called rebellion so it has supposedly already happenned BEFORE Job!!!! (consider that,it was before Job) Just because it was on Revelations does not mean it is going to happen at the end of the world!)
If it did happen at the end of the world then there still would not be a satan!!!(who can do these so called things to Job)
You can't defend satan if there is no satan....
Don't defend satan if you cannot address those verse in Revelations 12!!!!
THE WAR IN HEAVEN HAD TO BE BEFORE JOB FOR THERE TO BE A SATAN!!!!
Address them first and then get back to me!!!


Please explain further. I've read John 8 many, many times, and the 44th verse in the context of my post means the same thing to me that it always has. Please explain how you believe I have altered the meaning of John 8:44 by posting it by itself.


Read who Jesus was talking to!
John 8:48 ''The Jews answered him''
John 8:44: ''Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.''
ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:
Who did the devil ever murder?
Who did sin murder?
When was the beginning? (think hard on that one)
What are the ''lusts''?
Why did Jesus say it to those Jews?


You are free to say and believe whatever you want, and there are others who believe as you do. The church does not however, which is something you might want to consider!!


Ministers hold their congregation in fear - -those who have the biggest congregation often preach the biggest con.
The churches are a part of Babylon--Do your own studies!
According to the church only special people can become saints yet according to the bible we are all saints!!!
The churches preach purgatory yet purgartory is not in the Bible!
The churches use rosary beads yet rosary beads came from paganism!
The churches say it is OK to eat pork pointing to select scriptures almost always taking them out of context!
The churches pray for the dead - -where is praying for the dead in the bible?
The churches can excommunicate you
The churches hold their congregation in fear by saying fear god or you will go to a burning hell --where is this burning hell,o wait I have a rough Idea of what you may say but it can easily be argued with!

Actually, it would be "Satan" worship, and there are those who do that even today.


No,actually it would be idol worship that is what satan is -- an idol and any belief at all in satan makes you a beliver in satan! Just like Dagon and Baal..
I gather satan is important to you and you want to give him lots of credit for things he did not do? - - sounds like Idol worship to me!
Isaiah 45:5-7:5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I never said nor meant to imply that Satan was God's equal, far from it. I do believe there is evil in the world and that Satan, like many other creatures, is evil and does evil things, but only those things that God allows him to do. There is no "Yin and Yang" in Christianity, no evil creature equal to a good God. Just a God who allows for the existence of free will and thus a God who allows for the existence of evil as well.

God's equal - -that is exactly what you imply when you defend satan and give him credit you make him God's equal! belief in satan from what I gather makes him God's equal!!!!

 

[christian1488]

Good point.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
Mark 9:29 And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”
Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
Dan. 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
Dan. 10:20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.

Spiritual warfare is very real. This is evidently the proper interpretation.

James 3:15-16 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.

1 Cor. 14:13 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

Even if it was man's own lusts and desires, that doesn't mean we should pinpoint it on God as you seem to be doing. We can attribute it to God (Isaiah 45:7) but we can't blame God.

If it was literal then the war in heaven had to be literal and you do need to consider Revelations 12...