No reason to downsize our Bibles or God's Ten Commandments

[BobRyan]

Does it ever cross your mind that the only laws anyone quotes, whether Jesus or one of the apostles are always those from 5 to 10?

In fact I keep pointing out that in Matthew 19 and Romans 13 - there is nothing about
"Love God with all your heart"
"Do not take God's name in vain"

Which is not a problem since there is no such thing as "delete scripture if it is not in Matthew 19:

Obviously.

If the Sabbath law was the most important commandment as you seem to think it is, why isn't it spoken of more?

Clearly you are missing the point

But I think you can see in this example a clear indication of why it is that we do not all join you in that speculative avenue you are choosing.

============================

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.

Hint: What "Scripture" is James 2 quoting?

James 2
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.”

Who said "Do not commit adultery" -- and when?
Who said "Do not murder" -- and when?

Answer: it was God!

James 2
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Matthew 19
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

What Law is that?
What is Jesus quoting?

When asked 'Which ones?" from what does Jesus quote?

(Note to the reader: Expect no answer to my questions)

Notice that Romans 13 quotes the same list from the same Ten Commandments as Christ quoted before the cross. So then the list pre-cross is the same as the one after the cross. No change when it comes to the moral law of God. In both cases they show that the Lev 19:18 foundation for the last six commandments is not deleting them - it is establishing them.

That text makes the case that the Gospel promises in the New Covenant preceded the covenant at Sinai.

And so -- it was "always sin" to "take God's name in vain" before Sinai and even to this day.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor effeminate,
nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves,
nor the covetous,
nor drunkards,
nor revilers,
nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 3:31
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Question: First Commandment with a promise - where ?

 

[1stcenturylady]

In fact I keep pointing out that in Matthew 19 and Romans 13 - there is nothing about
"Love God with all your heart"
"Do not take God's name in vain"

Which is not a problem since there is no such thing as "delete scripture if it is not in Matthew 19:

Obviously.



Clearly you are missing the point

But I think you can see in this example a clear indication of why it is that we do not all join you in that speculative avenue you are choosing.

============================

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.

Hint: What "Scripture" is James 2 quoting?

James 2
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.”

Who said "Do not commit adultery" -- and when?
Who said "Do not murder" -- and when?

Answer: it was God!

James 2
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Matthew 19
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

What Law is that?
What is Jesus quoting?

When asked 'Which ones?" from what does Jesus quote?

(Note to the reader: Expect no answer to my questions)

Notice that Romans 13 quotes the same list from the same Ten Commandments as Christ quoted before the cross. So then the list pre-cross is the same as the one after the cross. No change when it comes to the moral law of God. In both cases they show that the Lev 19:18 foundation for the last six commandments is not deleting them - it is establishing them.

That text makes the case that the Gospel promises in the New Covenant preceded the covenant at Sinai.

And so -- it was "always sin" to "take God's name in vain" before Sinai and even to this day.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor effeminate,
nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves,
nor the covetous,
nor drunkards,
nor revilers,
nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 3:31
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Question: First Commandment with a promise - where ?

How does the death and resurrection of Christ affect your life? What changed.

 

[Ken Rank]

How does the death and resurrection of Christ affect your life? What changed.

What it should do is draw you close to God and cause us, in love, to walk according to His will and not our own... hence Him being Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

What it should do is draw you close to God and cause us, in love, to walk according to His will and not our own... hence Him being Lord.

True.

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

 

[1stcenturylady]

What it should do is draw you close to God and cause us, in love, to walk according to His will and not our own... hence Him being Lord.

Thanks Kenny.

1 John 3
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

True.

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

Romans 8:1-10

 

[BobRyan]

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

 

[1stcenturylady]

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

Romans 8:one-10!

 

[BobRyan]

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

And of course ALL of Romans 8... and all of the book of Romans

And Romans 8:1-10

And all of 1 Corinthians 6

And all of Romans 11

and ...

 

[1stcenturylady]

the New Covenant comes to mind.

(it is the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9) where we have this in Hebrews 8:6-12

1. The LAW of God written on the heart and mind (new birth, new creation, new heart)
2. Adoption into the family of God
3. Sins forgiven
4. Taught by God

And of course - this one... Romans 8:4-10

And of course ALL of Romans 8... and all of the book of Romans

And Romans 8:1-10

And all of 1 Corinthians 6

And all of Romans 11

and ...

The whole purpose of letter to the Romans up to this point is found in Romans 8. Especially, v1-2 and v9 and chapter 6

We are dead to sin and no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, because of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death. THIS is the what the New Covenant is all about.

John 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[1stcenturylady]

3. Sins forgiven

Sin is not just forgiven, as in a covering over filth - taken away, completely cleansed!

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

The whole doctrine of just forgiven, implies all the sins you continually commit are forgiven. NO!!! The whole desire to sin is taken away. Jude 1:4 "turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." They don't know the mind of Christ at all and don't have the eyes to see what Jesus really did!

And I don't mean you believe that, you don't, it came out of the Reformation. But that perversion of the New Covenant sets our mind always on sin, rather than having the mind of Christ. That, I'm afraid, does fit you, but I have hope that someday you'll see the truth in Christ.

It is where we set our MIND. Constantly on sin? Or - 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Marco70]

. But that perversion of the New Covenant sets our mind always on sin,

Your mind will always be set on/thinking of sin if you fear it will send you to hell.

 

[BobRyan]

The whole purpose of letter to the Romans up to this point is found in Romans 8

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Set your mind on the things of the Spirit, not the old flesh. For you are not in the flesh if you are in the Spirit, and no longer under the law if you walk in the Spirit.

Your posts are all about sin and law. That is not the Christian message.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What it should do is draw you close to God and cause us, in love, to walk according to His will and not our own... hence Him being Lord.

Amen Ken... according to His will.

 

[Ken Rank]

Your posts are all about sin and law. That is not the Christian message.

Yeshua said if you love me keep my commandments (and also said his words were the Father's so HIS commandments?)

John said the love of God is seen in keeping the commandments.

Yeshua showed the spirit/intent/depth of the commandments by saying it isn't just laying with another that is sin but doing it even only in your heart. That is harder.

My point in sharing these few, sis... is the difference between what @BobRyan (and myself) are saying and what most of modern Christianity is saying is that God does not change and sin is still sin AND defined in the Law. Whereas, modern Christianity is saying "no law" which by definition is lawlessness which we are warned about throughout the NT.

Look.... the word for lawless/without law in Greek is anomia. Usually it isn't translated as that, but that is what it means. Nomos is law, anomia is no law. Here is all the times it appears in the NT... forget what is translated in those verses... just read them knowing that anomia means without God's law.

G458
ἀνομία
anomia
Total KJV Occurrences: 17
iniquity, 9
Mat_7:23, Mat_13:41, Mat_23:28, Mat_24:12, Rom_6:19 (2), 2Th_2:7, Tit_2:14, Heb_1:9
iniquities, 3
Rom_4:7, Heb_8:12, Heb_10:17
law, 2
1Jo_3:4 (2)
transgresseth, 1
1Jo_3:4
transgression, 1
1Jo_3:4
unrighteousness, 1
2Co_6:14

Here is one example with it translated properly:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

That isn't the absence of secular law... that is the absence of God's law.

 

[Marco70]

Yeshua said if you love me keep my commandments (and also said his words were the Father's so HIS commandments?)

John said the love of God is seen in keeping the commandments.

Yeshua showed the spirit/intent/depth of the commandments by saying it isn't just laying with another that is sin but doing it even only in your heart. That is harder.

My point in sharing these few, sis... is the difference between what @BobRyan (and myself) are saying and what most of modern Christianity is saying is that God does not change and sin is still sin AND defined in the Law. Whereas, modern Christianity is saying "no law" which by definition is lawlessness which we are warned about throughout the NT.

The problem is this. Do those who stress you must obey the law to inherit eternal life/remain saved, including Jesus commandments understand what that entails? If they did, I wonder if they would be so keen to stress such a statement so much.
Let's start with Jesus commands in the Gospels:
Do not invite friends and family for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven.
Make sure NO ONE knows when you fast. That would include not dropping subtle hints that is what you are doing.
Let's turn to the TC:

You must have no other God's before your Father in heaven. You can make a god out of just about anything in your life, including a TV or computer. Does God always come before all things?
Don't build graven/unholy images in your mind.

Do not look at a woman with lust in your eye(Jesus ratified the commandment)

Do not get angry with your brother(Jesus ratified the commandment)

Do not have impure thoughts/lust(tenth commandment)

Love your enemies, those who malign, slander and hate you. Jesus taught who we must love.


Only it seems to me, unless the people telling you, you must obey the commandments to remain in a saved state, actually succeed themselves in obeying them, do they believe they are continually flipflopping between being in a saved and unsaved state, or, are they demanding of others what they do not demand of themselves? Or do they only have a shallow understanding of what obeying the law entails? The latter should be difficult, as under the NC the law God desires you to follow is in your most inward parts/your heart and mind

 

[The7thColporteur]

Set your mind on the things of the Spirit...

The law is "spiritual". It was written by the Holy Ghost. It was spoken by God, for out of the abundance of the heart of God, He spake.

 

[Ken Rank]

The problem is this. Do those who stress you must obey the law to inherit eternal life/remain saved, including Jesus commandments understand what that entails? If they did, I wonder if they would be so keen to stress such a statement so much.
Let's start with Jesus commands in the Gospels:
Do not invite friends and family for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven.
Make sure NO ONE knows when you fast. That would include not dropping subtle hints that is what you are doing.
Let's turn to the TC:

You must have no other God's before your Father in heaven. You can make a god out of just about anything in your life, including a TV or computer. Does God always come before all things?
Don't build graven/unholy images in your mind.

Do not look at a woman with lust in your eye(Jesus ratified the commandment)

Do not get angry with your brother(Jesus ratified the commandment)

Do not have impure thoughts/lust(tenth commandment)

Love your enemies, those who malign, slander and hate you. Jesus taught who we must love.


Only it seems to me, unless the people telling you, you must obey the commandments to remain in a saved state, actually succeed themselves in obeying them, do they believe they are continually flipflopping between being in a saved and unsaved state, or, are they demanding of others what they do not demand of themselves? Or do they only have a shallow understanding of what obeying the law entails? The latter should be difficult, as under the NC the law God desires you to follow is in your most inward parts/your heart and mind

Nobody here is suggesting that obeying saves... that negates the need for Yeshua to come and reverse the curse (of death) through his death and resurrection. What we are saying is that once you become a member of the house of God... you live by His standards. You don't get to determine what is sin and what is not. In fact... we SHOULD BE returning to the point prior to Adam. Check this out...

A friend of mine paints a picture and it goes like this.... before Adam sinned it was AS IF he was plugged into God. God was his source for everything including his understanding. When Adam sinned it was AS IF Adam unplugged and now had to choose between what was good and what was evil. When we come in faith through messiah we are submitting to him as Lord... so it SHOULD BE that we are, in a sense, plugging back in and allowing him to determine for us what is good and what is evil. The commandments define this...and if we allow Him, the Holy Spirit will guide us as we work through them in order to learn and understand them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your mind will always be set on/thinking of sin if you fear it will send you to hell.

This is the truth for most people on earth - and yes, their sin , the penalty of sin, is death.

It doesn't really matter if they keep thinking on sin or not, nor if they fear it or not -
their sin still sends them to certain destruction. Unless someone pays the price/ makes the sacrifice/ for their sins.