No new Mosques?

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

TG123 said:
This is a great source, WoodrowX. There were some Muslims who shamefully collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust and perpetrated terrible atrocities, as well as others who shamefully remained indifferent. There were also the heroes who stood up to them, some who paid for doing so with their lives.

The same is true of many Christians during that horrific time in history. Some worked with the Nazis and disobeyed Jesus, others turned the other way as their Jewish and Roma and Slavic (also Christian) neighbours were being murdered. Others though stood up to them.

Have you watched the movie Sophie Scholl: The Final Days? It is a true story of German students who were for the most part Christian (Sophie Scholl, the main character, was a Christian) who distributed leaflets in Nazi Germany calling for people to disobey Hitler. They were arrested, tried and executed. The film focuses on the last days of Sophie, who was one of their leaders, and shows her courage and faith in the face of approaching death. I would highly recommend watching this movie, it is on Youtube.
Sophie Scholl - The Final Days: True Story of Anti-Nazi Activist, Part 1 - YouTube

I have not seen that movie I will try to find it with Closed Captions as I am essentially deaf.

My first contact with Muslims was in 1961 When I was briefly stationed in Morocco. Remember that was only 16 years after WWll and the war was still fresh in the memories of the Moroccans and many of them had fought Rommel and his Afrika Korps. Actually traveling through out North Africa I found many Muslims that had fought the Nazis.

Being considered non-White by the Nazi's the Arab and Berber Muslims faced considerable torture if captured by the Nazis so many did fight to the death. They did engage in some of the most fierce battles of WWll.

I never met a Muslim who had any sympathy towards Hitler.

TG123 · Dec 17, 2013

WoodrowX2 said:
I have not seen that movie I will try to find it with Closed Captions as I am essentially deaf.

My first contact with Muslims was in 1961 When I was briefly stationed in Morocco. Remember that was only 16 years after WWll and the war was still fresh in the memories of the Moroccans and many of them had fought Rommel and his Afrika Korps. Actually traveling through out North Africa I found many Muslims that had fought the Nazis.

Being considered non-White by the Nazi's the Arab and Berber Muslims faced considerable torture if captured by the Nazis so many did fight to the death. They did engage in some of the most fierce battles of WWll.

I never met a Muslim who had any sympathy towards Hitler.

Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are able to rent it at a store, sorry to hear about your hearing.

I definitely believe that many Muslims fought the Nazis, as did many Christians.. and many others who fought peacefully by doing things like hiding people, sabotaging vehicles, even blocking trains going to death camps.

I met only one Muslim who claimed to support Hitler, it was when I was in the West Bank. The guy blamed all Jews for the actions of the IDF and said some terrible and racist things. Most Palestinian Muslims and Christians did not share his attitude, even though, like him, they have suffered a lot.

In the city where I live, there are some South Sudanese Christians, whose people are refugees who have had to flee their homes because of the Sudanese Army. One of the guys can't stand Muslims or Arabs, he hates them. I suspect that he and the Palestinian man I met likely share similar reasons for their hate. May God free them from it, and may He bring justice to their peoples.

TG123 · Dec 17, 2013

smaneck said:
Gee, that is the same rationalization I hear Muslims use!

Uh, no. The unequal treaty made with the Chinese insisted they accept both the opium and the missionaries.

Indochina was taken over by the French in order to protect missionary activity.

Sorry, that passage says nothing about being inspired by Muslims. What inspired him was Europeans ignoring the Armenian plight.

Uh, no. The last Christians in Turkey were Greek Orthodox. In 1923 Greece and Turkey agreed to a massive population exchange.

Uh, no. The Armenians were targeted for supporting the Russians during WWI.

Wrong. Arabs, Muslim and Christian alike, tended to sympathize with the Germans because unlike the British and the French they had not occupied their land after WWI. In Iran, Reza Shah supported sympathized with Hitler's antisemitism because he could use it against the Arabs, and by implication against Islam.

I agree with most of what you have written except the part in bold.

The Armenians were targets of Ottoman massacres and discrimination and oppression long before the First World War. Look up the Hamidian Massacres.

The Armenians were an occupied people, not unlike the Native peoples in North America.

Some Armenians fought the Ottomans militarily, like some Native peoples did. It was defensive violence against occupiers, who responded by massacring tens of thousands (and in the case of Armenia, hundreds of thousands) of civilians, indiscriminately.

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

TG123 said:
Aha, I knew it! These devious Muslims even built mosques that resembled churches to pretend it was Christians who were putting kids in residential schools, when it fact it was the imams (not priests) who were beating and abusing Native kids! They even went so far as to put crucifixes on their walls and put crosses on their Qurans so they looked like Bibles! It goes without saying that the people who ran the schools and threw people onto reservations were Arabs who spoke English and French, just to make the white man look bad!

In all seriousness, white people claiming to be followers of Christ have done some horrific and unjust things to your people. We destroyed your families and burned your homes and devastated the youth by locking them away in institutions where they were put through hell.

I work with many kids who are Native in schools I teach at and at the church drop-in I volunteer at. A lot of them are hungry and come from broken homes and their lives are affected by alcoholism and abuse and poverty and gangs and drugs. While we all are responsible for choices we make, the fact of the matter is that if it weren't for the actions of some so-called "Christians" on this continent, they would likely be in a different (and better) situation.

Though my family is from Eastern Europe and we are first generation immigrants and have played no part in tyrannizing your people, as a Christian I feel sorrow and shame by some of the terrible crimes committed against your people by people claiming to be followers of Jesus. Please know that what they did was in disobedience to what the Bible teaches.

Most of my Family is from Lithuania and are Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian/Polish Tatar of the Golden Horde)

My Grandparents (on my Mothers Side)came to the US in 1895. My Fathers side mostly came to the US prior to the Revolutionary war. He was a bizarre mixture of British, Scot, Lithuanian, Penobscot and a few unidentified species.

I was originally Christian for 45 years, then Atheist for 20 and returned to Islam at the age of 65, which ironically was the religion of my Tatar ancestors.(I only learned that within the past 5 years)

Less than 10% of the world's Muslims have any Arab heritage and not all Arabs are Muslim.

My wife is the one in the Family who is nearly 100% Native American. I am sort of adopted by the Lakotah. Currently trying to learn the Lakotah language, with my hearing loss it is proving to be a challenge.

We do try to stay active with Native American aide groups trying to Help Pine ridge Reservation and we are frequent visitors to Pine Ridge. Current goal is trying to get Propane for the older people on the rez. Many have no heat or electricity. Each year many of the elders die from exposure to the cold.

Side note my wife was one of the Children "Rescued" from the Northern Cheyenne reservation in the 1940s. I won't repeat the horrors she experienced from that. She does not blame Christianity for that, and does know it was the act of individuals not of a religion.

smaneck · Dec 17, 2013

TG123 said:
The Armenians were targets of Ottoman massacres and discrimination and oppression long before the First World War. Look up the Hamidian Massacres.

I'm not saying there were not problems before this.

The Armenians were an occupied people, not unlike the Native peoples in North America.

Here is the problem. They lived in the same places as the Kurds who you also described as an occupied people. In fact Kurds played a large role in the Hamidian Massacre.

Nearly all of these problems are the outcome of spread of nationalism, which is in my mind the idol of the modern age.

Ishraqiyun · Dec 17, 2013

I need to learn more about Quranic fondling I guess. Never heard of the term before.

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

TG123 said:
Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are able to rent it at a store, sorry to hear about your hearing.

I definitely believe that many Muslims fought the Nazis, as did many Christians.. and many others who fought peacefully by doing things like hiding people, sabotaging vehicles, even blocking trains going to death camps.

I met only one Muslim who claimed to support Hitler, it was when I was in the West Bank. The guy blamed all Jews for the actions of the IDF and said some terrible and racist things. Most Palestinian Muslims and Christians did not share his attitude, even though, like him, they have suffered a lot.

In the city where I live, there are some South Sudanese Christians, whose people are refugees who have had to flee their homes because of the Sudanese Army. One of the guys can't stand Muslims or Arabs, he hates them. I suspect that he and the Palestinian man I met likely share similar reasons for their hate. May God free them from it, and may He bring justice to their peoples.

Wa Alaikum Salaam,

I find that in the Sudan and Darfur the hostilities are essentially racial not religion. Arab vs Black African.

I find racial hatred to be the most despicable of hatred as it is clearly forbidden by all 4 of the Abrahamic Faiths. all 4 Faiths teach we all have the same set of original parents. There are no races, like it or not we are all siblings from the same family.

Hatred is a very destructive emotion. While it may hurt the one hated, it always destroys the one who does the hating. If any emotion can separate a person from the human race that emotion is hatred. If left unchecked hatred eventually turns the one who hates into a mindless beast.

smaneck · Dec 17, 2013

Ishraqiyun said:
I need to learn more about Quranic fondling I guess. Never heard of the term before.

I am so tempted to say something I shouldn't here. >;}

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

Ishraqiyun said:
I need to learn more about Quranic fondling I guess. Never heard of the term before.

I gave up using the Search engines to finding it. So I am doing a word by word search. It takes me 30 hours to read the Qur'an when I read it with Tajweed. I try to read one Juz a day and that takes an hour. My search should be complete by Jan 18.

Crypto · Dec 17, 2013

TG123 said:
How is fondling defined in the Quran or hadiths? I would love to see you provide a reference.

You can use the website below:
Search Engine: Search in the Quran Ø§ÙÙØ±Ø§Ù Ø§ÙÙØ±ÙÙ and Hadith -- Learn about Islam and Muslims. Islamic Softwares, Azan, Athan, Qiblah, Prayer Times, Quran Hadith, Islamic Supplictaions, Azan Athan software for Mobile Cell Phone.

and do a Quran search or hadith search. I am sure fondling is defined in one of these sources. You seem very knowledgeable about Islam so I am sure you will have no problem finding the relevant verses. Thanks.

I really had no idea that the Quran or hadiths prohibit NFP. Please show me where they do so. Thanks.

It wouldn't kill you to use google:

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. (Sahih Bukhari 1:6:298)

Nowadays the practice is called "thighing" or "[FONT=&quot]Mufakhazat Alzigaar". [/FONT]

Ishraqiyun · Dec 17, 2013

It wouldn't kill you to use google

That wasn't a definition. You were asked to give evidence of your claim of a special Quranicaly / Hadith mandated fondling that was somehow different and more heinous than normal fondling. That Hadith didn't provide direction for a specific type of fondling. It didn't even give details on the nature of the fondling other than describing the womens cloths at the time. It merely mentions him fondling his wife in a dress.

Heaven forbid someone fondle ( ie stroke or caress lovingly* ) their wife.

*
fon·dle
ˈfändl/
verb
verb: fondle;
1.
stroke or caress lovingly or erotically.

smaneck · Dec 17, 2013

WoodrowX2 said:
Wa Alaikum Salaam,

I find that in the Sudan and Darfur the hostilities are essentially racial not religion. Arab vs Black African.

Dear Woodrow,

It is more complicated than that. The so-called Arabs of the Sudan are just as dark as the so-called blacks and DNA studies don't demonstrate really any racial differences either. "Arab" is really a social category in the Sudan which denotes the amount of Arab culture one has supposedly assimilated.

The real problem in the Sudan has to do with land tenure and the environment. There are basically three groups of people in the Sudan.

The camel nomads who live in the Sahara desert
Farmers who lived in the south. (Where Christians and pagans mostly live)
Cattle nomads in the middle. That's where Darfur is.

When the British ruled the Sudan they assigned permanent titles to the land of farmers, but no land rights were given to the nomadic people. The continuing drought in the Sudan has forced camel nomads into the lands of cattle nomads who then began pushing on the settled peoples. In the 1990's the government attempted to assign lands to these nomadic peoples, but of course, that meant taking it away from someone else. This led to a brutal conflict with horrific consequences.

One of the best studies of this conflict is by Mahmood Mamdani and entitled *Saviors and Survivors: Darfur, Politics, and the War on Terror.* Mamdani also wrote very important book on the Rwanda massacres entitled *When Victims become Killers.* One of his books I often use in my own classes is
*Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror.*

One point where I would disagree with Mamdani is that he seems to feel that Western intervention in these situations only makes things worse. But in my opinion "Never Again" has to mean "Never Again" whenever and wherever. That's a point Mamdani makes in his book *Good Muslim, Bad Muslim* and I think he should stick to it.

warmest, Susan

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

Crypto said:
It wouldn't kill you to use google:

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. (Sahih Bukhari 1:6:298)

Nowadays the practice is called "thighing" or "[FONT=&quot]Mufakhazat Alzigaar". [/FONT]

I do not have an Arabic copy of Bukhari and am not certain what word is being translated as Fondling.

However, as this Book 6 refers to the menses looking through the English I find

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299 :
Narrated by 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad

(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

The last sentence seems to indicate there is no actual sexual contact. I am not certain as to what is meant or how fondling should be understood, but it does not seem to mean a sexual act.

There are several definitions for fondling.

1.to handle or touch lovingly, affectionately, or tenderly; caress: to fondle a precious object; to fondle a child.

2. Obsolete. to treat with fond indulgence.

I believe the definition intended is:

1.to handle or touch lovingly, affectionately, or tenderly; caress:

Crypto · Dec 17, 2013

Ishraqiyun said:
That wasn't a definition. You were asked to give evidence of your claim of a special Quranicaly / Hadith mandated fondling that was somehow different and more heinous than normal fondling. That Hadith didn't provide direction for a specific type of fondling. It didn't even give details on the nature of the fondling other than describing the womens cloths at the time. It merely mentions him fondling his wife in a dress.

Heaven forbid someone fondle ( ie stroke or caress lovingly* ) their wife.

*
fon·dle
ˈfändl/
verb
verb: fondle;
1.
stroke or caress lovingly or erotically.

Muhammad never provided any definition of fondling, perhaps because he was to busy fondling an underage Aisha.

Look, another wonderful pearl from the religion you love:

islamic necrophilia (FIS fatwa : you can rape your dead wife ) - YouTube

WoodrowX2 · Dec 17, 2013

smaneck said:
Dear Woodrow,

It is more complicated than that. The so-called Arabs of the Sudan are just as dark as the so-called blacks and DNA studies don't demonstrate really any racial differences either. "Arab" is really a social category in the Sudan which denotes the amount of Arab culture one has supposedly assimilated.

The real problem in the Sudan has to do with land tenure and the environment. There are basically three groups of people in the Sudan.

The camel nomads who live in the Sahara desert
Farmers who lived in the south. (Where Christians and pagans mostly live)
Cattle nomads in the middle. That's where Darfur is.

When the British ruled the Sudan they assigned permanent titles to the land of farmers, but no land rights were given to the nomadic people. The continuing drought in the Sudan has forced camel nomads into the lands of cattle nomads who then began pushing on the settled peoples. In the 1990's the government attempted to assign lands to these nomadic peoples, but of course, that meant taking it away from someone else. This led to a brutal conflict with horrific consequences.

One of the best studies of this conflict is by Mahmood Mamdani and entitled *Saviors and Survivors: Darfur, Politics, and the War on Terror.* Mamdani also wrote very important book on the Rwanda massacres entitled *When Victims become Killers.* One of his books I often use in my own classes is
*Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror.*

One point where I would disagree with Mamdani is that he seems to feel that Western intervention in these situations only makes things worse. But in my opinion "Never Again" has to mean "Never Again" whenever and wherever. That's a point Mamdani makes in his book *Good Muslim, Bad Muslim* and I think he should stick to it.

warmest, Susan

You are probably correct. I was just aware of the frequent dislike I seen Between Arabs and Africans when I lived in North Africa. Even though prejudice is prohibited in Islam, it does occur.

smaneck · Dec 17, 2013

Crypto said:
Look, another wonderful pearl from the religion you love:

Making love to a corpse may be perverse, but it is not rape.

What this video shows is just how silly the 'ulama's fixation with legalism can sometimes be. Every act, no matter how trivial or vile has to fall into one of five categories: required, commended, neutral, reprehensible and prohibited. Since the issue of making love with a corpse never comes up in the Qur'an or the hadith it is categorized as neutral as long as it is with your spouse.

I don't think making love with a corpse ever comes up in the Bible either.

smaneck · Dec 18, 2013

WoodrowX2 said:
Even though prejudice is prohibited in Islam, it does occur.

According to a sermon by Ali ibn Talib, this was the sin of Satan.

Ishraqiyun · Dec 18, 2013

Look, another wonderful pearl from the religion you love:

Giving up on defending your last critique so you move on to an unrelated one? Seems to happen each time someone pokes holes in your previous claims. Quick search Youtube for a video of a self professed Muslim saying something stupid.

Crypto · Dec 18, 2013

Ishraqiyun said:
Giving up on defending your last critique so you move on to an unrelated one? Seems to happen each time someone pokes holes in your previous claims. Quick search Youtube for a video of a self professed Muslim saying something stupid.

What critique? The one about thighing children? Search for yourself. There are fatwas about the topic in the internet. I think I already posted them before and I won't do it again.

Crypto · Dec 18, 2013

Hey, Muslims, check this:

Necrophilia in Islam, New Law in Egypt - YouTube

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