No moral justification

dad · Aug 19, 2006

"
Carter especially took aim in the Der Speigel interview at Israel. "I don't think that Israel has any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon. What happened is that Israel is holding almost 10,000 prisoners, so when the militants in Lebanon or in Gaza take one or two soldiers, Israel looks upon this as a justification for an attack on the civilian population of Lebanon and Gaza. I do not think that's justified, no," he said. "
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51589

Carter, I think you improved with age. God bless you.

seekingpurity047 · Aug 19, 2006

dad said:
"
Carter especially took aim in the Der Speigel interview at Israel. "I don't think that Israel has any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon. What happened is that Israel is holding almost 10,000 prisoners, so when the militants in Lebanon or in Gaza take one or two soldiers, Israel looks upon this as a justification for an attack on the civilian population of Lebanon and Gaza. I do not think that's justified, no," he said. "
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51589

Carter, I think you improved with age. God bless you.

No problem, let the terrorists blow up their cities, we don't mind *sigh*

I'm sorry, but Israel has every right to defend their country. And who cares if Israel is holding amongst 10'000 palestinian prisoners. These people were in violation of law, ergo, they can also emprison them for that very reason.

To the glory of God,

Randy

ContraMundum · Aug 19, 2006

I doubt very much there are 10,000 Palestinian prisoners all innocent of crimes that don't deserve to be in prison- surely Palestinians can commit crimes too.

Perhaps there's 10,000 prisoners throughout all Israel that would include criminals other than terrorists, and maybe some are innocent (as happens anywhere), but some would deserve incarceration for sure and should not be let out.

What bothers me is how insidiously stupid Westerners are when it comes to the Middle East. They think it is a "crime" to hold political prisoners, but not to hold terrorists. They tend to forget that a political prisoner in that part of the world usually is a terrorist. Political "activists" in those areas are not university students selling leftist newspapers and wearing Che Guevara tees- they're brainwashed kids strapping bombs to themselves and getting on buses to detonate them- or worse, they're the people teaching the kids to do it.

Is the prisoners are indeed criminals, then they need to be in prison. However, if there are some being held for no valid reason, this would be a problem and a great concern. But, as is obvious and common sense, all 10,000 prisoners are obviously not going to be innocent, and so to call for their release is merely undermining justice.

BarbB · Aug 19, 2006

I think Carter needs to be treated for senile dementia! Or possibly he needs exorcism. Don't know which but he's not helpful here or anywhere else.

dad · Aug 19, 2006

seekingpurity047 said:
seekingpurity047 said:

No problem, let the terrorists blow up their cities, we don't mind *sigh*

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Actually, I support the UN stepping in and stopping them from continuing to do so. Countries should not be attacked and bombed.

I'm sorry, but Israel has every right to defend their country.

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Not including terror.

And who cares if Israel is holding amongst 10'000 palestinian prisoners. These people were in violation of law, ergo, they can also emprison them for that very reason.

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In the opinion of some parties, they were, as the soldiers and occupiers are in the opinion of others. Israel's is only 1 little opinion.

dad · Aug 19, 2006

BarbB said:
I think Carter needs to be treated for senile dementia! Or possibly he needs exorcism. Don't know which but he's not helpful here or anywhere else.

He and I come from a different spirit than you feel is of God, then. Fine with me.
I chose the Prince of Love and Peace that loves Lebanon's people.

ContraMundum · Aug 19, 2006

dad said:
He and I come from a different spirit than you feel is of God, then. Fine with me.
I chose the Prince of Love and Peace that loves Lebanon's people.

I don't think that's the point BarbB was thinking about. This isn't about pacifism, it's about rhetoric. It's about spin.

Carter thinks Israel targeted the "entire nation" of Lebanon, which is not true, and that they made an attack "on the civilian population" per se. That is not true either.

What Carter typifies is the kind of bias that uses hyperbole at best or outright lies at worst to make an appeal to emotion in order to gain support for his position.

The facts, as we have tried (in vain it seems to the stiff-necked lefties on this forum) to point out to those who hate Israel, do not line up with Carter's comments. We know Hezbollah hid in civilian areas to wage its war on Israeli towns. We know that such tactics are war crimes too. We also know that Hezbollah had been launching rockets at Israel for some time before they raided Israel and killed and captured Israeli soldiers. We also know that this constitutes an act of provocation and war. We also know that the Lebanese government did nothing to prevent this, and in fact, stood by and allowed it to develop (because they are powerless anyway). I don't think anyone disputes these things. This equation of events led to inevitable civilian casualties, even though Israel took precautions above and beyond those of her enemies or other nations in recent times to prevent them.

How then, can we let Carter get away with such comments without challenging his approach? Why can't Carter take a position of balance?

seekingpurity047 · Aug 19, 2006

dad said:
Actually, I support the UN stepping in and stopping them from continuing to do so. Countries should not be attacked and bombed.

Click to expand...

So, you think that in the future, when Hezbollah is 10 times as large with many more weapons (perhaps even the rule of the government of Lebanon) becuase of their gain of support by helping refugees, countries won't be bombed even more so? If Hezbollah is permitted to even exist, then we have a serious problem on our hands. The UN should not be doing a ceasefire, but should be hunting those terrorist lunatics. That organization has no right to exist.

Not including terror.

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So defense is an act of terror? Tell that to the Americans after dropping the Atom Bomb on Japan... If it weren't for that bomb, no offense, but there would have been a lot more casualties than you could possibly imagine.

In the opinion of some parties, they were, as the soldiers and occupiers are in the opinion of others. Israel's is only 1 little opinion.

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Ok, and in the opinion of the Nazi party of Germany, Hitler was justified in killing 6 million Jews. Suddenly morality has become relative? Heh, I don't think so.

To the glory of God,

Randy

dad · Aug 19, 2006

ContraMundum said:
ContraMundum said:

I don't think that's the point BarbB was thinking about. This isn't about pacifism, it's about rhetoric. It's about spin.

Carter thinks Israel targeted the "entire nation" of Lebanon, which is not true, and that they made an attack "on the civilian population" per se. That is not true either.

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Says you. But a tree is known by the fruits. We see those.

What Carter typifies is the kind of bias that uses hyperbole at best or outright lies at worst to make an appeal to emotion in order to gain support for his position.

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No, perhaps it is more that you use some things for your position that his position exposes?

The facts, as we have tried (in vain it seems to the stiff-necked lefties on this forum) to point out to those who hate Israel, do not line up with Carter's comments.

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So, if we don't want a country attacked, and mercilessly and relentlessly bombed, we hate Israel? Gosh, what, they are so pure, we should accept it even if they nuked Damascus? (At the same time crying foul if Arabs come close to having such weapons?)

We know Hezbollah hid in civilian areas to wage its war on Israeli towns.

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What should they have done, come out to the border or occupied lands, with their comparitively little weapons, and say come and get me?

We know that such tactics are war crimes too.

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No one says one side is an angel here. But it should be noted that an occupied territory sometimes has resistance to the agressors.

We also know that Hezbollah had been launching rockets at Israel for some time before they raided Israel and killed and captured Israeli soldiers.

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We know a lot of things, yes, such as that Israel frequently sent in the tanks, and threw up a berlin wall largely on the territory of others, and etc.

We also know that this constitutes an act of provocation and war.

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No more than if some are kidnapped in Nicaragua. What, we should take out 4 good sized cities evey time a crime happens there?

This equation of events led to inevitable civilian casualties, even though Israel took precautions above and beyond those of her enemies or other nations in recent times to prevent them.

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Precautions like what, rush ordering plenty more US bombs to really do some damage?

How then, can we let Carter get away with such comments without challenging his approach? Why can't Carter take a position of balance?

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I am afraid the balances have been tipped there, and God will step in soon, on one side, and we know what happens there. Go God go.

dad · Aug 19, 2006

seekingpurity047 said:
seekingpurity047 said:

If Hezbollah is permitted to even exist, then we have a serious problem on our hands.

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We already do. And it has nukes.

The UN should not be doing a ceasefire, but should be hunting those terrorist lunatics. That organization has no right to exist.

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Those who destroyed a country, and mass innocent lives have NO right to call names, I am afraid. None.

So defense is an act of terror? Tell that to the Americans after dropping the Atom Bomb on Japan...

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OK, US, the word terror was not used as much back then, it applies.

If it weren't for that bomb, no offense, but there would have been a lot more casualties than you could possibly imagine.

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I disagree. Many do. Man has no right to use nukes. Period. Ever. All should unilaterally, and immediatly diarm them and destroy them if they have any claim to a shred of goodness.

Ok, and in the opinion of the Nazi party of Germany, Hitler was justified in killing 6 million Jews. Suddenly morality has become relative? Heh, I don't think so.

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I would rather be a German Jew than a Palestinian, from all I hear. Anyday.

Treppers · Aug 20, 2006

dad said:
I would rather be a German Jew than a Palestinian, from all I hear. Anyday.

This statement really is reckless. Whatever truthful allegations we can level at the Zionists - that they have engaged in ethnic cleansing, massacre and rape - they've not organised the systematic destruction of all Palestinians.

True, they want Palestinians off 'their' land (itself a disgusting and yet laughable notion). True, they are prepared to use brutal means to achieve this aim etc.. But they've not rounded Palestinians up by the million and exterminated them in a systematic fashion.

I know watching the evils perpetrated by the Israeli government and its military is horrible, and the sense of powerlessness to stop it while the US maintains its astonishing levels of support for Israeli crimes is soul-destroying. But let's not make unjustifiable statements like that.

ContraMundum · Aug 20, 2006

dad said:
What should they have done, come out to the border or occupied lands, with their comparitively little weapons, and say come and get me?

Not at all. What they should have done is minded their own business and stuck to their side of the border like a good neighbour should and leave Israel alone in peace. They should not have raided into another country and it's obvious to me that they got exactly what they wanted- war. I just have a feeling that they didn't expect the whooping they got.

No one says one side is an angel here. But it should be noted that an occupied territory sometimes has resistance to the agressors.

The only country recently to have "occupied" Lebanon was Syria- Hezbollah's ally. Ironic eh?

CardinalBaseball · Aug 20, 2006

dad said:
I disagree. Many do. Man has no right to use nukes. Period. Ever. All should unilaterally, and immediatly diarm them and destroy them if they have any claim to a shred of goodness.

I would rather be a German Jew than a Palestinian, from all I hear. Anyday.

Yeah, I'm gonna say you're wrong. Millions more would have been killed if we had invaded Japan itself and not used the atomic bomb. And your second statement really does show your ignorance of WWII history. You'd rather be gased, cremated, starved, beaten? Watched as probably all of your family ended there lives at the hands of Nazism? Well, that's your choice.

dad · Aug 20, 2006

Treppers said:
Treppers said:

This statement really is reckless. Whatever truthful allegations we can level at the Zionists - that they have engaged in ethnic cleansing, massacre and rape - they've not organised the systematic destruction of all Palestinians.

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They have not the power to do that. Guess they do what they can.

I know watching the evils perpetrated by the Israeli government and its military is horrible, and the sense of powerlessness to stop it while the US maintains its astonishing levels of support for Israeli crimes is soul-destroying. But let's not make unjustifiable statements like that.

Click to expand...

Seriously, I would rather have been a German Jew. There are worse things than death, and some question the extent of what went on there anyhow.

dad · Aug 20, 2006

ContraMundum said:
ContraMundum said:

Not at all. What they should have done is minded their own business and stuck to their side of the border like a good neighbour should and leave Israel alone in peace.

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I see. And I suppose Israel should not send in the tanks any time they have the slightest notion? Should they not send assasins 'anywhere in the world' to kill what they say are 'enemies of Israel'? Perhaps they should even restrain where they build the new Berlin wall to their own lands!? Or is this all one sided, and the simple message being that the occupied peoples have no rights, even to resist?

They should not have raided into another country and it's obvious to me that they got exactly what they wanted- war. I just have a feeling that they didn't expect the whooping they got.

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Yes, the babies, and women, and infastucture really got a whumpin. How brave.

The only country recently to have "occupied" Lebanon was Syria- Hezbollah's ally. Ironic eh?

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Let Lebanon vote on who they prefer as occupiers then?

ContraMundum · Aug 21, 2006

dad said:
Yes, the babies, and women, and infastucture really got a whumpin. How brave.

Lebanon should know- you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

Interesting today that the Lebanese gov't finally grew a set- they've told your mates in Hezbollah to keep a lid on it or they'll charge any breakers of the cease-fire with treason. 'Bout time....a couple of months too late though.

Let Lebanon vote on who they prefer as occupiers then?

No one is currently occupying Lebanon and anyone with common sense knows Israel have no such designs.

CardinalBaseball · Aug 21, 2006

dad said:
I see. And I suppose Israel should not send in the tanks any time they have the slightest notion?

Like being attacked. . . ?

gwynedd1 · Aug 21, 2006

CardinalBaseball said:
Like being attacked. . . ?

How is Hezbollah different than Mexican organized crime?

http://www.mexidata.info/id869.html

They kill Americans all the time.

Do you know how easy it would be to stage an attack with just a few people? Israel has it own radicals that could set this up. Isreal went in with it guns blazing far in excess and it wound up killing more of it own civilians.
What really bothers me is how people will fall for these phony pretexts. Maybe Hezbollah did it on its own, maybe not. There are people on both side who wanted the war. However agressors always come up with the excuse.

This does not happen? It happens all the time.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76342

The infamous bottle....

dad · Aug 21, 2006

CardinalBaseball said:
Yeah, I'm gonna say you're wrong. Millions more would have been killed if we had invaded Japan itself and not used the atomic bomb.

I heard that part of the reason was to give a demo to the Soviets. I think a demo may have been covincing to Japan as well, of an uninhabited place.

And your second statement really does show your ignorance of WWII history. You'd rather be gased, cremated, starved, beaten?

Were not some defectors for example in airplanes Jewish, who gave secret info to the allie, and stuff? If so, how is it they were not gassed? Seems like some were OK.

Watched as probably all of your family ended there lives at the hands of Nazism? Well, that's your choice.

Israel bombed populated areas as well, no? Do Palestineans have all rights there, more than German Jews had? Did many have their groves uprooted, and hoses buldozed, etc? Did not tens of thousands get rounded up for the prisons? Many had entire families killed as well. How is this stuff better in one country or the other?

dad · Aug 21, 2006

gwynedd1 said:
How is Hezbollah different than Mexican organized crime?

http://www.mexidata.info/id869.html

They kill Americans all the time.

Do you know how easy it would be to stage an attack with just a few people? Israel has it own radicals that could set this up. Isreal went in with it guns blazing far in excess and it wound up killing more of it own civilians.
What really bothers me is how people will fall for these phony pretexts. Maybe Hezbollah did it on its own, maybe not. There are people on both side who wanted the war. However agressors always come up with the excuse.

This does not happen? It happens all the time.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76342

The infamous bottle....

God help us. Such people have no right to point the finger.

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