No Literal Hell?

OzSpen said:

I base it on the Bible, not Tyndale, Ellen White, JWs, etc.

Oz

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I don't think you are. You with disagree EG White, OK? Who doesn't?

You disagree with Tyndale merely because of your tradition on not on any bible verse that says we have eternal life outside of the resurrection.

MichaelKelley said:

Everyone is resurrected, the righteous in Christ will be resurrected before the Great Tribulation and then we who are still alive will be "caught up" with them (harpazo; rapturo). The wicked who have not believed in the name of Christ will be resurrected afterward, to stand at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15).

Satan will be thrown alive into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet have been for the past 1000 years while Christ has reigned, and "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). You may say, "Well, that's only talking about those three," but the lost will still be resurrected, all of them, so they have to receive new bodies as many of their old bodies have decayed by now. Why give them a new body if it's just going to be destroyed after the Judgment?

Our Lord Yeshua said, "These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46).

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May I encourage you not to bring your pre-trib, premill, dispensational view of eschatology into this discussion. The pre-tribulation view was nowhere to be found, in my search of church history, until J. N. Darby (founder of the Plymouth Brethren) came along with that interpretation in 1826.

Throughout the first 1800 years of the church, the primary eschatological views were: (1) Historic premillennialism (post-trib rapture), and (2) Amillennialism.

In Christ, Oz

OzSpen said:

May I encourage you not to bring your pre-trib, premill, dispensational view of eschatology into this discussion. The pre-tribulation view was nowhere to be found, in my search of church history, until J. N. Darby (founder of the Plymouth Brethren) came along with that interpretation in 1826.

Throughout the first 1800 years of the church, the primary eschatological views were: (1) Historic premillennialism (post-trib rapture), and (2) Amillennialism.

In Christ, Oz

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For many of those years, theology was strictly controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. Christian Theology had its own dark ages. There may be people who don't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture, but that doesn't mean it isn't so, just as a staunch belief in Purgatory and buying dead loved ones out of Purgatory doesn't mean it is so.

Timothew said:

Oz, I urge you to reread 2 Peter 2 in it's entirety. You are mistaken, I'm not saying this to be difficult or mean. Your interpretation is incorrect.

"bringing swift destruction on themselves"
"their destruction is not sleeping"
"did not spare the ancient world" (but drowned them in Noah's Flood)
"condemnned Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly"
"like beasts they too will perish"

In fact, the only person tormented in this entire chapter is Righteous Lot! And He was saved from destruction.

Now, describe your belt. Has its "life" ended? Is it dead? What does that have to do with people who live and die and are resurrected to eternal life or eternal destruction?

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Tim,

When the Scriptures us the words "destroy", "destruction", and "perish", they do not indicate that existence ceases. One of the main Greek words for "destroyed" (ESV) is in Mark 2:22 is translated "ruined" (NIV, ISV), ""marred" (KJV), in connection with the skins in which the new wine burst. The word, "perish", never indicates annihilation in the Bible.



In 2 Peter 3:6 we read,

"And that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished." (ESV).

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The world of that time, whether pre-Adamic or at the time of the flood, "perished", but it was not annihilated or obliterated.


So, when Scripture speaks of the ungodly as "perishing" or being "destroyed", it is not talking of annihilation or being eliminated.


In Christ, Oz

phoenixdem said:

For many of those years, theology was strictly controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. Christian Theology had its own dark ages. There may be people who don't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture, but that doesn't mean it isn't so, just as a staunch belief in Purgatory and buying dead loved ones out of Purgatory doesn't mean it is so.

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Phoenix,

Let's leave the Roman Catholic Church to the side for the moment. Please tell me where to find a pre-trib interpretation of the rapture in the early church fathers.

In Christ, Oz

Mikecpking said:

I was too. Who is Ellen White?

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Don't you have a search engine?

Oz

Timothew said:

I don't think you are. You with disagree EG White, OK? Who doesn't?

You disagree with Tyndale merely because of your tradition on not on any bible verse that says we have eternal life outside of the resurrection.

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False

Oz

OzSpen said:

Don't you have a search engine?

Oz

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Oz,
I was being sarcastic. I am not a follower of Ellen White, so I am not sure why you brought her up in the first place when I was discussing what the bible really states and what the Hebrews believed.

Mikecpking said:

Oz,
I was being sarcastic. I am not a follower of Ellen White, so I am not sure why you brought her up in the first place when I was discussing what the bible really states and what the Hebrews believed.

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I brought up Ellen G. White because Seventh-Day Adventists and the JWs are leading proponents today of the false doctrine of soul sleep. Soul sleep is not promoted in mainstream evangelical Christianity as orthodox.

Sincerely, Oz

OzSpen said:

I brought up Ellen G. White because Seventh-Day Adventists and the JWs are leading proponents today of the false doctrine of soul sleep. Soul sleep is not promoted in mainstream evangelical Christianity as orthodox.

Sincerely, Oz

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Hi Oz,
Since the notion that 'soul' does not survive death, the label 'soul sleep' is absurd.

The bible is clear that people 'sleep' in the grave (sheol, hades) as rephaim (Psalm 88, Job 3) (the dead) and Daniel 12:2 clearly states those who sleep in the dust of the earth will arise.

Even in the NT, death is described as 'sleep'

Aren't we told that there is a resurrection both of the just and the unjust? Wouldn't that mean we are all made immortal? Some to everlasting life with the Lord and the rest to everlasting damnation?

nuhope said:

Aren't we told that there is a resurrection both of the just and the unjust? Wouldn't that mean we are all made immortal? Some to everlasting life with the Lord and the rest to everlasting damnation?

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Yes, Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29.

Some will argue that the resurrection to damnation will end in annihilation after being thrown into the lake of fire or stay there endlessly. Both have the effect of the punishment being everlasting.

Mikecpking said:

Hi Oz,
Since the notion that 'soul' does not survive death....

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Mike,

We know from Scripture that your statement is false.

1 Thess. 5:23 , "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

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Oz

OzSpen said:

Mike,

We know from Scripture that your statement is false.

Oz

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Again, a misinterpretation. The verb and adjective are singular with the emphasis to keep the 'whole' of you sound and blameless rather than 'parts' of you.
If that were so, what about the heart, bones, kidneys, reins, marrow etc? These are all 'parts' with spiritual significance. In fact, there are around 80 'parts', not 3.
The Hebrews very often used 'nephesh' for the 'whole', and the same goes for 'psuche' in Greek.

Did you read those last 4 paragraphs from that link?

OzSpen said:

Tim,

When the Scriptures us the words "destroy", "destruction", and "perish", they do not indicate that existence ceases. One of the main Greek words for "destroyed" (ESV) is in Mark 2:22 is translated "ruined" (NIV, ISV), ""marred" (KJV), in connection with the skins in which the new wine burst. The word, "perish", never indicates annihilation in the Bible.



In 2 Peter 3:6 we read,

The world of that time, whether pre-Adamic or at the time of the flood, "perished", but it was not annihilated or obliterated.


So, when Scripture speaks of the ungodly as "perishing" or being "destroyed", it is not talking of annihilation or being eliminated.


In Christ, Oz

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If you insist on taking the secondary definition of perish then it is possible to come up with the doctrine which you have if you are precommitted to the theory of eternal torment.

The natural normal definition of perish is to die. The natural normal definition of destruction to to be destroyed.

If you turn the meanings of words around, you can come up with any sort of doctrine you want to.

Take "baptism" for example. We know that "baptizo" means "I immerse". If you accept a secondary definition of baptism which was added later in church history, baptism means "a religious sacrament marked by the application of water to an infant's head symbolizing his entry into the church." If the secondary definition is insisted to be the only definition, we must baptize infants and we cannot baptize adults.

Similarly, if you insist on the secondary defintion of perish as the only definition, then you can have the doctrine of eternal torment if you insist on having it.

Read the words using their normal definitions. You don't have to accept the word "annihilation", it just confuses the issue. When a person perishes, they die. When a person is resurrected, they live again. When a person is destroyed, they die.

I think you brought up EG White only to attempt to paint everyone who believes that the wages of sin is death with the same brush. "EG White is a heretic, so you are too." It is a logical fallacy. The question isn't what White believed, the question is what does the bible say is true.

Nuhope, we all accept that there is a resurrection and judgment of the just and the unjust. What happens after the judgment? Those in Christ receive a resurrection of eternal life. Those outside of Christ receive a resurrection of judgment.

What does the judgment consist of? I am saying the judgment results in death, because of numerous passages in the bible such as Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death and John 3:16, whoever believes will not perish. Ozpen is saying the judgment results in eternal torment because of passages like Luke 16:24, I am in torment and Revelation 20:10, they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Each side must accept the other as a brother or sister in Christ, while we attempt to discover what the bible says about this.

OzSpen said:

Phoenix,

Let's leave the Roman Catholic Church to the side for the moment. Please tell me where to find a pre-trib interpretation of the rapture in the early church fathers.

In Christ, Oz

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I really don't want to get into a long discussion about the timing of the Rapture. The early Fathers did believe in the Second Coming, but they didn't get into a discussion of the Church being taken away from out of the Tribulation. Yes, there is sufficient Scripture to argue suitably for a Pre-Trib Rapture. There is also plenty of argument back and forth over this matter.

That the early Fathers didn't say anything about a Pre-Trib Rapture that would show sufficient evidence doesn't bother me. Paul did say it, the Rapture, was a great mystery. I also don't have a problem that prophecy has been a gradual unfolding to Christians. We are in the End Times now, and it is more important now that we understand prophecy of the End Times. Learned scholars of the Holy Bible have traditionally had a problem with the prophecy of the Book of Revelation and other books of the Old Testament that deal with that subject.

Just off the top of my head, I will point to the Philadelphia Church being promised they would be taken away from those times,

John

3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things
saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David,
he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man
openeth;​

​

3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and
no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my
word, and hast not denied my name.

3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say
they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to
come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved
thee.

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep
thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the​

world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I'm sure that you know other Scripture that Pre-Tribulationists point toward to show a Pre-Trib Rapture. If you want to read a great book on the subject, I recommend the following book,

The Footsteps of the Messiah by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum.

Amazon.com: Footsteps of the Messiah (9780914863090): Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum: Books

Timothew,

r
e: "If you insist on taking the secondary definition of perish then it is possible to come up with the doctrine which you have if you are precommitted to the theory of eternal torment."
　
Absolutely. These folks have to want everlasting torture for those that don’t meet certain requirements for salvation. And they try to interpret scripture to support their blood thirsty desires.

rstrats said:

Timothew,

r
e: "If you insist on taking the secondary definition of perish then it is possible to come up with the doctrine which you have if you are precommitted to the theory of eternal torment."
　
Absolutely. These folks have to want everlasting torture for those that don’t meet certain requirements for salvation. And they try to interpret scripture to support their blood thirsty desires.

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How do you reconcile verses of Scripture that talk about everlasting punishment? Are they something that we "bloodthirsty" Christians made up and had inserted in the Holy Bible?

phoenixdem,

re: "How do you reconcile verses of Scripture that talk about everlasting punishment?"
　
Actually - as has been previously mentioned - there is only one verse that uses the phrase "everlasting punishment". Why do you take "punishment" to mean torture when it can be taken to mean something else? The wages of sin is death.

rstrats said:

phoenixdem,

re: "How do you reconcile verses of Scripture that talk about everlasting punishment?"
　
Actually - as has been previously mentioned - there is only one verse that uses the phrase "everlasting punishment". Why do you take "punishment" to mean torture when it can be taken to mean something else? The wages of sin is death.

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There are a number of verses that speak of hell and judgment. We dare not miss them.

In Christ, Oz