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No free will - just salvation or everything?

Do we lack free will just in salvation, or in all things?

  • We only lack libertarian free will in salvation

  • We have no libertarian free will in anything


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Yahweh Nissi

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Hi there.

I was just wanting to get an idea of the numbers supporting different views amoungst Calvinists (or at least those that are CF members :) )

Do you believe that there is no libertarian* free will with regards to salvation only, or is there none regarding our thoughts and actions either?


*If you are wandering what I mean by libertarian free will then please just ignore it and think free will. It is just that some Calvinists have come up with deffinitions of free will that are compatible with Calvinism - but obviously different to what an Arminian would mean, and in literature I have come across where this is acknowleged, libertarian free will is the term used to define the Arminian understanding.
(My views are somewhere between Weslyan Arminianism and the 'open theology' of Gregory Boyd et al in case anyone was interested.)
 

Jon_

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This seems to be a key difference between true Reformed Theology, and anti-Calvinism (sub-Calvinism/hyper-Calvinism).

We have the freedom of choice. Our choices will always be whatever we desire most. In our fallen state, we desire only sin, only unrigheousness. When the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts, we are enabled to desire Christ. Through Christ, we are justified and made righteous, and enabled to pursue righteousness being freed from the bonds of sin.

To say that we have no free will whatsoever is tantamount to saying that God actively wills our every thought and action--sinful or righteous. This is, of course, dreadfully inaccurate, and is the mire into which anti-Calvinism falls.
 
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CoffeeSwirls

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Note that when our hearts are changed, we choose God with our own free will. Man always has the freedom to do that which delights them the most... always. In order for us to want to choose God, though, he must trade out our hearts of stone for hearts of flesh. If that is so bad, then perhaps Lazarus should have been angry for being ressurected by Jesus.

I suppose I would have to say that we have libertarian free will in all things, but not the desire to choose certain things over others. Arminians would believe that they have the power to preach hard enough or put on a grand enough show to convince someone to choose God, but cold, dead hearts don't make choices. The only thing that can revive the heart of man is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, which quickens those who are chosen. Anything less would be a vain attempt to rob God of His glory.
 
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rnmomof7

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I love my Pastors explanation.

Draw a large circle, then within that circle draw a smaller one.
Label the large circle Gods ordained will.

Label the smaller circle human liberty ( those things in which we have a choice like schools, spouses , jobs etc)

Then note that the small circle is fully within the larger circle of Gods ordained will.

It is the creator that has fearfully and wonderfully made you, He has placed within you all of your preferences. He knows you will choose brown shoes because He is the one that gave you the preference for the color or the type of work or the climate .

So you freely choose many things that God has ordained that you will choose
 
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GrinningDwarf

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I think that as the others have posted here, saying that Calvinism or Reformed theology teaches 'no free will' shows a misunderstanding of Calvinism...at least the way I've understood it for the last couple of years or so. The common belief is that Calvinism teaches that God drags some people kicking and screaming against their will off to heaven while He excludes others who might otherwise desperately want to be there. RC Sproul calls that view a gross caricature of Calvinism and says that Calvinism has never taught such a concept.
 
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frost

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I agree with the others, but just wanted to point out that Total Depravity can be confusing to non-reformed folks, especially with comments like, "In our fallen state, we desire only sin, only unrigheousness." While I agree with Jon and understand what he means, clearly not all unsaved persons "only desire sin," as in all they do is go around trying to sin. There are many un-saved people that desire to do good things, hence their decision to do them.
 
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Jon_

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frost said:
I agree with the others, but just wanted to point out that Total Depravity can be confusing to non-reformed folks, especially with comments like, "In our fallen state, we desire only sin, only unrigheousness." While I agree with Jon and understand what he means, clearly not all unsaved persons "only desire sin," as in all they do is go around trying to sin. There are many un-saved people that desire to do good things, hence their decision to do them.

This is a common misconception. Sin is unrighteousness. Unrighteousness is sin. They are the same thing. Unregenerate hearts cannot desire righteousness. Even when it does something "good" (by human standards), it is not righteous in God's eyes. There can be no equivocation. Righteousness is willing fulfilling the will of God. Unless we have Christ's redemption, we cannot desire to fulfill God's will, thus, we cannot do anything righteous.

There is a huge difference between "good," by human standards and "righteous," by God's standards. Even when humans do good, if it is not motivated by a desire to fulfill God's will, it is sinful because it is then motivated by selfish desires or a desire to please others (for the sake of pleasing them). It is still rebellion against God because it is equivalent to saying, "I'm doing this for my own reasons, not Yours!" It is unrighteous.
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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Thanks for the replies.

Coffeeswirls said:
Arminians would believe that they have the power to preach hard enough or put on a grand enough show to convince someone to choose God
I, at least, certainly do not believe that and in no way wish to rob God of His glory!

Jon said:
To say that we have no free will whatsoever is tantamount to saying that God actively wills our every thought and action
I have both read and spoken to people who call themselves Calvinists who believe this.

rnmomof7 said:
So you freely choose many things that God has ordained that you will choose
But I am also aware that definitions of free will like this have been formulated and I was not wanting to get into the distinction between these schools of thought - hence my use of the term libertarian free will to attempt to distinguish an Arminian understanding of it; i.e. choosing to do something that God did not ordain you to choose from eternity.

So from what you have written here rnmomof7, you would be in the second poll option.

Thanks again for the replies,
love YN.
 
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Jon_

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Yahweh Nissi said:
I have both read and spoken to people who call themselves Calvinists who believe this.

They're not Calvinists (in the true sense). They're sub-Calvinist wolves in sheeps clothing. Bear no mind to lies such as these, indeed, rebuke them that they would impute such unrighteousness to God.
 
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cygnusx1

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My view is that Predestination covers more than salvation , so I consider libertarian free-will (the ability to always choose the opposite even when God knows the outcome ) an illusion .

All God's Knowledge is based upon His will , not upon secondary causes .
God NEVER learns anything new.

However I don't consider myself a "hard determinist" but a "soft Determinist"
 
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cygnusx1

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MYTH OF FREE WILL Walter Chantry


Most people say that they believe in "free will." Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?

The Myth of Circumstantial Freedom

No one denies that man has a will -- that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in His power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good" (Gen 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps" (Prov 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer 10:23).

Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do; but your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, "This I will do: I will pull down all my barns, and build greater; and there I will bestow all my fruits and my goods...But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee" (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.

The Myth of Ethical Freedom

But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making MORAL decisions. Man's will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man's will free to choose?

The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force, but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.

Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature, but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition, according to the condition of your heart.

It is just for this reason that your will is NOT free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY" (Gen 6:5). "There is NONE that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendents of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.

Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, "And their foolish heart was darkened" (Rom 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, "There is NONE that seeketh after God" (Rom 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose God. To choose good is contrary to human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose, and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.

If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh. This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force, but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man's powers of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without a prior work of divine grace.

What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to ONLY evil CONTINUALLY. Jeremiah asked, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature. Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.

In spite of the great praise that is given to "free will," we have seen that man's will is not free to choose a course contrary to God's purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality makeup.

The Myth of Spiritual Freedom

Nevertheless many assert that human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. They say that here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.

There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called "faith." But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, "Out of the power of their own free will." But how can that be? Jesus is a PROPHET. To receive Him means to believe all that He says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, "Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

Further, to receive Jesus means to embrace him as a PRIEST -- that is, to employ and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome Him as KING. It means choosing to obey His every command, to confess His right of rule, and to worship before His throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, "We will not have this man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates His truth, hates His rule, and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith?

It is not man's will but God's GRACE that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission, man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must be given before a man can believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature -- even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again" (John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see His kingdom.

Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been "born, not of the will of man, but of God." As your wil is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he then could choose to answer the call of Christ, but he could not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:5, "Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us (made us alive} together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)." Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life.

No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of the Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God's mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that He may create a new spirit within you.


:wave:
 
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hooverbranch

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rnmomof7 said:
I love my Pastors explanation.

Draw a large circle, then within that circle draw a smaller one.
Label the large circle Gods ordained will.

Label the smaller circle human liberty ( those things in which we have a choice like schools, spouses , jobs etc)

Then note that the small circle is fully within the larger circle of Gods ordained will.

It is the creator that has fearfully and wonderfully made you, He has placed within you all of your preferences. He knows you will choose brown shoes because He is the one that gave you the preference for the color or the type of work or the climate .

So you freely choose many things that God has ordained that you will choose

I like this explanation... We have free will to an Earthly Point of View meaning that It is all in Gods Plan and his Will but we dont know Gods Will so to us the Choices we make come from us.
 
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cygnusx1

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Some wish to restrict Predestination to Salvation and salvation alone , I think this is done to avoid "Double predestination" ......... reprobation/Preterition.


It seems to many that if we can confine God's absolute Majesty to the realms of THE GREAT GOOD of saving sinners all is well , we can be at peace .........

But is that not a complete avoidance of the scriptures ?

ACTS 4

24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
25who by the mouth of our father David, thy servant, didst say by the Holy Spirit, `Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' --
27for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.




Calvinism , is far bigger than TULIP .......
 
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oworm

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It seems to many that if we can confine God's absolute Majesty to the realms of THE GREAT GOOD of saving sinners all is well , we can be at peace .........

But is that not a complete avoidance of the scriptures ?



Yes................. "If God is not absolutely sovereign in all things then we need to look for another god"
 
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Irishcat922

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I think you have to define "free will" I see it very simply, before someone is a Christian they have a free will to live in rebellion against God, but never capable of choosing to do good(relatively speaking), once that will is renewed in Christ the will is bound up in our union with Christ, therefore it is truly free, albeit still corrupted by the flesh.
 
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Irishcat922

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Man's will is in slavery. by John Calvin

We have learnt that sin has power over mankind in general and also over every person. We will now consider whether man has any freedom at all.

There are two dangers to avoid in discussing this. We must not think that man has lost all sense of right. This would give us an excuse for such a sin as laziness. And even worse, a man could say that he has no power to do right and therefore there is no need for Mm to try. The other error to avoid is that we must not claim one atom of righteousness for ourselves. If we said that we were able in ourselves to do good, we would be robbing God of his honour and would also place ourselves in danger of falling into sin through being proud.

The true situation is that we have lost all goodness. But we must learn to seek earnestly from God the goodness we do not have in ourselves and also the freedom we have lost.

Philosophers say that man's power of reason is sufficient to govern his mind and therefore his actions. They say that the will may be tempted by our senses, but remains free to choose in agreement with our reason. Even many Christian writers are in some error here. They describe the will as free, even though they see only a very limited freedom. They say man chooses willingly to do wrong and is not forced to do so. This is true, but it is a very poor freedom if it is only a freedom to do, or not to do, evil. We would have no freedom to do good.

Scripture teaches that man has no freedom to choose the good until the Holy Spirit gives him freedom. We must have a very low opinion of our own goodness and a very high opinion of the goodness that God can give us. The thought that we have goodness of our own must be rejected, for that thought comes from Satan. He is a liar, for he said to Adam and Eve: "You will be like God, knowing good and evil".

Many verses in the Bible emphasise that we must net think we have any goodness of our own but must turn to God. "Cursed be the man who trusts in man ... whose heart turns away from the Lord" (Jeremiah 17:5). "God delights not in the strength of the horse, nor does he have pleasure in the legs of a man; but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love" (Psalm 147:10,11). "He gives power to the faint, and to him who has no might he increases strength" (Isaiah 40:29).

But God does not give his power to those who are proud or ungrateful. He waits till we see the need for strength from him. When we thirst for him, he will quench our thirst. "For I will pour water on the thirsty land and streams on the dry ground" (Isaiah 44:3). We must never think that we can do any good ourselves. We must be humble enough to ask for God's Spirit to help us. Someone once asked Augustine what the most important requirement is for a true Christian. He answered: "First, humility; secondly, humility; thirdly, humility".

When Adam sinned and caused the fall of mankind, mankind entirely lost some of God's gifts. Other gifts were spoiled but not lost. We lost the ability to love God, the ability to love our neighbour, and the desire for holiness and righteousness. We marred the gifts of soundness of mind and the desire to be morally upright.

Man has certainly not lost the power to reason. He can understand and judge and he knows the difference between good and evil. But there is a difference between understanding matters that concern our life on earth and understanding heavenly matters. We can know earthly things with our partially spoiled minds. We cannot use such corrupted minds to have any knowledge of God, of his righteousness, or of' the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

There are very strong proofs in the world around us that man has still an ability to reason. Firstly we can see that man is a sociable creature and lives in groups. And every man reasons that there must be laws on which to base a society. Secondly, almost every person has some skill, art or aptitude. This fact shows some strong ability in the human mind. And thirdly, writers have produced such excellent works that we must certainly see in them a most able reasoning.

Although these people may not realise it, the gifts they have and the gifts that any of us have, are from the Spirit of God. He is the only source of truth.

We may wonder how much power human reason has to help us know God and understand his fatherly love toward us. The answer is that even the most clever men know very, very little if God has not given them light. The light they possess is similar to the light they may receive from one flash of lightning on a dark night. They know a little of God's attributes. They cannot plead complete ignorance as an excuse for ungodliness. But the light they have is not enough for them to reach the truth.

We learn this fact from the Bible as well as from our observation of mankind. When Peter realised that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus replied: "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17). Psalm 36:9 tell us: "With thee is the fountain of life. In thy light we see light". When Moses reproved the people of Israel for forgetting God's works, he said: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes.., the signs, and those great wonders: but to this day the LORD has not given you a mind to understand, or eyes to see, or ears to hear" (Deuteronomy 29:2-4). The Lord speaks through Jeremiah: "I will give them a heart to know me" (Jeremiah 24:7). Of course, this means that the people did not have spiritual wisdom, but that God would give it, This is clearly stated in John 6:44: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

The apostle Paul pronounces all human wisdom to be folly (I Corinthians 1: 18). Then he says: "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). The possession of spiritual understanding is the gift of God alone. This is shown in Paul's prayer: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him" (Ephesians 1:17). Paul continues with: "having the eyes of your understanding enlightened" (Ephesians i: 18). Most surely, we are blind and know almost nothing of God unless he graciously enlightens us.

We may wonder whether man has knowledge about the standards God wants in our lives. Yes, we do have knowledge of right and wrong. "When the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the laws requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts" (Romans 2:14,15). If Gentiles have the law written on their hearts, they certainly have some knowledge of right and wrong. Their own conscience is their law, but it does not do them very much good. They may know right from wrong; but when they continue in sin their knowledge makes them responsible and leads on to their just condemnation.

The mind of man has no power to do good. It does not even try to do good. When Paul says that he now desires to do good but cannot (Romans 7:15), he is speaking as a Christian. The natural man does not have this conflict. The natural man does not even desire to do good. Paul says that no good thing dwells in him, that is, in his flesh. Any good there is in him now comes from God and not from himself.

Only the born again man has the conflict within himself described in Romans 7:22,23: "I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind". Augustine said: "Confess that whatsoever good you have in you is of God; whatsoever evil, of yourself. Nothing is our own, but sin".

 
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Yahweh Nissi said:
Hi there.

I was just wanting to get an idea of the numbers supporting different views amoungst Calvinists (or at least those that are CF members :) )

Do you believe that there is no libertarian* free will with regards to salvation only, or is there none regarding our thoughts and actions either?


*If you are wandering what I mean by libertarian free will then please just ignore it and think free will. It is just that some Calvinists have come up with deffinitions of free will that are compatible with Calvinism - but obviously different to what an Arminian would mean, and in literature I have come across where this is acknowleged, libertarian free will is the term used to define the Arminian understanding.
(My views are somewhere between Weslyan Arminianism and the 'open theology' of Gregory Boyd et al in case anyone was interested.)

Good day, Yahweh

By the definition of the term.

Baker’s Theological dictionary:



Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.



Webster’s:



  1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
  2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
No, we are constrained by many external forces in the choices we make every day.

God is the only one with "free" will.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Jon_ said:
This seems to be a key difference between true Reformed Theology, and anti-Calvinism (sub-Calvinism/hyper-Calvinism).
The difference is only on the surface. Even if one believes (as most Arminians do) predestination on the basis of foreknowledge alone, one must answer the determinism/non determinism question.
Jon_ said:
We have the freedom of choice. Our choices will always be whatever we desire most. In our fallen state, we desire only sin, only unrigheousness. When the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts, we are enabled to desire Christ. Through Christ, we are justified and made righteous, and enabled to pursue righteousness being freed from the bonds of sin.
Agreed. To choose otherwise would be insanity for a person who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Jon_ said:
To say that we have no free will whatsoever is tantamount to saying that God actively wills our every thought and action--sinful or righteous. This is, of course, dreadfully inaccurate, and is the mire into which anti-Calvinism falls.
Got to call that one. My Calvinist Brother, you've fogotten the distinction between direct acts of God, and those that come about by secondary causes, where God is NOT the immediate causual agent. You find that in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

This is a rather large distinction. For example: God alone saves: The means of salvation is through the regeneration, hearing and responding to the gospel. The preacher is the secondary cause. He preaches the gospel. God has ordained the means and the end. Yet the means are achieved by secondary causes.
 
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