No death before sin

[hisgrace26]

Just a thought. How do theistic evolutionists account for death? The bible say in Romans, there was no death before Adam sinned. The bible say death is our enemy and it will be destroy in the last day. If you believe in millions of years then you nullify the gospel of Christ for salvation. Are you not concern this would do great damage to your faith?

 

[CabVet]

Just a thought. How do theistic evolutionists account for death? The bible say in Romans, there was no death before Adam sinned. The bible say death is our enemy and it will be destroy in the last day. If you believe in millions of years then you nullify the gospel of Christ for salvation. Are you not concern this would do great damage to your faith?

If you read the entire chapter you will see that the author is quite obviously talking about spiritual death. You are referring to this verse:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

As he continues, he says this:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And this:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

And this:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What you show is a perfect example of quote mining the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you read the entire chapter you will see that the author is quite obviously talking about spiritual death.

God set it up that spiritual death would precede physical death; and it did -- in Genesis 3.

 

[CabVet]

God set it up that spiritual death would precede physical death; and it did -- in Genesis 3.

I thought the subject here was Romans.

 

[ChristianT]

If Jesus died so we wouldn't have to die [physically, naturally], then either He failed or we're doing it wrong. Because everyone still dies like that. No, Christ came to save us from eternal, spiritual death, and to clean us of our sins. Don't worry, you can accept evolution and not destroy anything actually relevant or useful/helpful to your faith in God.

 

[hedrick]

Calvin's comment on Genesis is sort of spiritual death, but with a different slant. He thinks humans weren't ever intended to live forever on earth. We were always going to join God. But without sin it would be an effortless transition. Sin turns it into something painful and fearful.

While he doesn't say this, I doubt that animals were intended to live forever either. Indeed some seem designed to eat each other.

 

[Doveaman]

If you read the entire chapter you will see that the author is quite obviously talking about spiritual death. You are referring to this verse:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

As he continues, he says this:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And this:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

And this:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What you show is a perfect example of quote mining the Bible.

I think you are the one who is quote mining with your lopsided interpretation.

Eternal life came through Jesus just as eternal death came through Adam.

Eternal life begins with the spirit and is completed when the body is glorified in heaven.

Eternal death begins with the spirit and is completed when the body is destroyed in hell.

Death is both spiritual and physical.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28).

 

[Doveaman]

If Jesus died so we wouldn't have to die [physically, naturally], then either He failed or we're doing it wrong. Because everyone still dies like that. No, Christ came to save us from eternal, spiritual death, and to clean us of our sins.

Jesus saves us from physical death by restoring our lives after we physically die.

Lazarus was saved from physical death after he physically died.

Jesus also saves us from spiritual death by restoring our lives after we spiritually die.

We were all spiritually dead at some point:

“When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (Col 2:13).

“Because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved. ” (Eph 2:4-5).

Jesus saves us from both spiritual and physical death after we die.

Don't worry, you can accept evolution and not destroy anything actually relevant or useful/helpful to your faith in God.

I agree.

 

[Strathos]

If Jesus died so we wouldn't have to die [physically, naturally], then either He failed or we're doing it wrong. Because everyone still dies like that. No, Christ came to save us from eternal, spiritual death, and to clean us of our sins. Don't worry, you can accept evolution and not destroy anything actually relevant or useful/helpful to your faith in God.

Pretty much this.

 

[Doveaman]

Calvin's comment on Genesis is sort of spiritual death, but with a different slant. He thinks humans weren't ever intended to live forever on earth. We were always going to join God. But without sin it would be an effortless transition. Sin turns it into something painful and fearful.

That sounds reasonable.

While he doesn't say this, I doubt that animals were intended to live forever either. Indeed some seem designed to eat each other.

Does this mean animals would have died even if there was no sin?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Eternal life begins with the spirit and is completed when the body is glorified in heaven.

Eternal death begins with the spirit and is completed when the body is destroyed in hell.

Pfft. That is nonsensical. For you eternal life is all about glorification or destruction of a physical body and the spirit is secondary?

 

[Doveaman]

Pfft. That is nonsensical.

Is there anything related to God that is not nonsensical to an agnostic?

For you eternal life is all about glorification or destruction of a physical body and the spirit is secondary?

It is your interpretation of my post that is nonsensical.

So let me clarify:

When Adam sinned, eternal death was the result, both spiritual and physical:

“Sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Rom 5:12).

When Adam sinned, every human being that has ever lived since him were destined to die eternally for their own sins.

We have all already experienced spiritual death, and some of us are still experiencing it:

“You were dead in your transgressions and sins…we were dead in transgressions…you were dead in your sins” (Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13)

And we all will also experience physical death, which some of us have already experienced:

"Man is destined to die once [physically], and after that to face judgment." (Heb 9:27).

When Jesus came, He came to save us from eternal death caused by sin. He came to save us from remaining dead forever (eternal death). He saved us by rescuing us from death through the restoring of our lives. We were saved from death (both spiritual and physical) by being restored to life:

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins…But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.” (Eph 2:4-5).

Salvation is Christ rescuing us from eternal death (both spiritual and physical) through the restoring of our lives. If Christ does not save us from death, we remain dead forever.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24).

 

[[serious]]

Just a thought. How do theistic evolutionists account for death? The bible say in Romans, there was no death before Adam sinned. The bible say death is our enemy and it will be destroy in the last day. If you believe in millions of years then you nullify the gospel of Christ for salvation. Are you not concern this would do great damage to your faith?

Spiritual death. There would have to be death if there was reproduction, otherwise population densities would quickly get out of hand. Some bacteria can reproduce in as little as 5 minutes. If we start with even a single bacteria, let it run for a week, and we've doubled 2000 times to get 2^2000 bacteria or 10^250 bacteria. that would be enough bacteria to collapse into a black hole.

 

[Gottservant]

I think you are confusing "death" with "the knowledge of death"

easy mistake to make, as the text is not clear what kind of death is being spoken about

unfortunately, there is no clear start date for when life began mutating

 

[dad]

Calvin's comment on Genesis is sort of spiritual death, but with a different slant. He thinks humans weren't ever intended to live forever on earth. We were always going to join God. But without sin it would be an effortless transition. Sin turns it into something painful and fearful.
..

So did he wake up in the night and think that up?

 

[dad]

Spiritual death. There would have to be death if there was reproduction,....

Oh? That seems to assume reproduction was random....rather than planned.

 

[Joshua0]

Just a thought. How do theistic evolutionists account for death? The bible say in Romans, there was no death before Adam sinned.

Adam was protected because he was in Eden. When he sinned he was thrown out of Eden into the world. Death IE animals that devour one another began when Satan was thrown out of Heaven and down to the earth. Along with the angels that followed him in his rebellion against God. This happened millions of years ago, before the ice age.

When God restores all of Creation, animals will no longer devour one another. They will be restored and eat what grows out of the ground. "The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox".

 

[hisgrace26]

Spiritual death. There would have to be death if there was reproduction, otherwise population densities would quickly get out of hand. Some bacteria can reproduce in as little as 5 minutes. If we start with even a single bacteria, let it run for a week, and we've doubled 2000 times to get 2^2000 bacteria or 10^250 bacteria. that would be enough bacteria to collapse into a black hole.

If it was spiritual death then how do you explain physical death? You'd have to say it came by natural processes over millions of years, thus death wasn't the consequence of sin. Am I right?

 

[[serious]]

If it was spiritual death then how do you explain physical death?

I explain it as a physical necessity.

You'd have to say it came by natural processes over millions of years,

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean by "it" in this case. Physical death? Spiritual death? I'm not sure how anything I said invokes millions of years. Not that I object to the reading of earth and life existing for millions of years, I just don't see how that issue relates to this topic in any way. I set aside the issue specifically by only letting our bacteria run for a literal 7 days.

thus death wasn't the consequence of sin. Am I right?

Spiritual death was. Physical death must have existed even with a literal 7 day creation and an IMMEDIATE fall.

 

[Joshua0]

Just a thought. How do theistic evolutionists account for death? The bible say in Romans, there was no death before Adam sinned.

There was death before Adam. There was no sin before Adam. The sin resulted in death for Adam. It is the Spirit that gives life and God tells us in Gen 12:6 " My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." Adam lived less than 1,000 years. With God a day is as 1,000 years. That is why God said on the day that Adam sinned, he would die.