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No conviction of sin
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<blockquote data-quote="losthope" data-source="post: 58649774" data-attributes="member: 94863"><p>To joey down under,</p><p></p><p>You wrote this:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Inevitably I cannot cover everything in a few sentences of explanation. You give three Bible passages that consider the consequences of sin. I found it interesting that the three writers each write about different consequences of a person continuing in sin. John stresses the importance of recognising sin, of repentance, forgiveness and being made more holy, and in verse 10 says that a person who sins does not follow God an exhortation to Christians to continue to avoid sin. Paul also writes that sinners will be excluded from Gods kingdom which is part of the gospel message. The writer to the Hebrews writes that it is necessary to continue to believe and to avoid sin, because otherwise the believer will become an unbeliever and will be excluded from sharing in Christ a passage that suggests to me that it is all too possible to lose your salvation if you do not hold on to doing Gods will.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I wrote before that people are tempted by the world, the flesh and the devil. I was thinking particularly of self-deception, which is an example of being deluded by the flesh. I mentioned this because I would not be able to be self-deluded in this way because I lack the emotions and feelings that are an essential component of this.</p><p></p><p>However, I recognise that some people could be deluded by the devil, spiritual deception, spiritual experiences that come from the devil. I suspect that at present I am immune from these as well, because again the devil would presumably use the persons emotions in order to make the demonic spiritual experience appear more significant.</p><p></p><p>Some genuine believers do join cults and follow cultish leaders. Once again, I suspect that they could do this because of being deceived by the world, the flesh or the devil. It could be due to spiritual deception from the devil, but it could just as easily be the person, or the cult leader, following some temptation from the world or from the flesh.</p><p></p><p>Remember that unless there is some insight or wisdom given to a person as a gift of the Holy Spirit, then to a great extent it is a matter of personal opinion whether a particular off-beat Christian organisation is almost mainstream or is a dangerous cult. Often these groups are initially praised by Christian leaders until they move off in some unexpected spiritual direction.</p><p></p><p>Also, there are many genuine Christian leaders who have almost cult status, and their followers would trust them and follow them wherever they lead. If such a Christian leader succumbs to temptation, who knows where they might lead their flock.</p><p></p><p>It is a pity that the few Christian leaders who do go astray in various ways have such a big impact on public opinion of Christianity in general. Ask most people in my country what they think of television evangelists, for example. After they stop criticising or laughing, they may not remember the names, but they will certainly remember the sins, and how amusing it was to the unbelievers. You wrote recently about people mocking Christianity, but in reality one major cause of mocking Christianity is the folly and sin of the Christian leaders who are led astray. All of which goes to show how important are the three Bible passages above, and the many similar Bible verses, in encouraging people to experience a conviction of sin and repentance.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that God should not reject people because of their feelings or the lack of them. It is not the feelings, but the consequences of feelings that are what matters. You write that belief in Christ, true repentance and a complete change of mind and behaviour are needed for metanoia. Because I lack feelings and strong emotions, I would not (in my own strength) be able to do a complete anything. I just do not have the motivation and passion to want to make such a big change in my life. It means that I do not have a real conviction of sin, a perceived need for a saviour, a passion for repentance, the ability to make a complete change of mind or the incentive to make a complete change to my behaviour. Of course God could help me to do all of these things, but I could not manage it on my own. Unfortunately as far as I am aware, God did not help me to change, and the result was that eventually I was no longer able to trust in God.</p><p></p><p>I understand why I did not change, and I understand why I lost my belief. What I am trying to understand is why there was no perceived help from God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You could certainly argue that unbelief is keeping me from God now. What I would need is some way in which I could once more be able to believe. This implies that something has to change. Maybe what would have to change is something in me. Maybe what would have to change is the way that God would try to affect me. Maybe what would have to change is something quite different that I have not thought of. Of course God would know what would be needed.</p><p></p><p>However, that was not the situation when I was a believer. It was not unbelief that was keeping me from knowing God back then. Something was keeping me from knowing God though, and I am trying to find out what it was, so that something can be done about it.</p><p></p><p>I began this thread in order to investigate the possibility that the reason for my disappointing experience as a believer was that I did not have true repentance because I did not have a real conviction of sin. I agree with you that I am unlikely ever to feel repentance, because for biological reasons I do not feel anything in that way.</p><p></p><p>Am I thinking repentance and metanoia now? No. Did I think repentance and metanoia during the time that I was a believer? Yes, I think so. Yet I still had my disappointing experience as a believer. That is why I am asking if simply thinking repentance and metanoia is enough. Because one possibility (and it is only one possibility among several) is that just thinking repentance and trying to change my mind in my own strength without the passion associated with felt emotions was just not enough for God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree in principle with the message that you are conveying with these verses, that God is God and who are we to question that. However, if the creation of a new heart is a miracle, it would not be much of a miracle if nobody realised it, including the person with the new heart.</p><p></p><p>In the verses from 2 Corinthians, Paul writes that the surpassing power of God is manifest in Christians. That they are not forsaken, that the life of Jesus is in the bodies of the believers. In other words, it is something that would happen and be seen to happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Christians often speak about heart knowledge. About knowing something in your heart and not just in your head. Knowing it in your knower.</p><p></p><p>What does it mean? The idea of knowing something in my heart is completely meaningless to me. Christians have tried to explain it to me, but I remain baffled. Is it a mystery that I will never be able to recognise or experience?</p><p></p><p>As a slight aside, Christians also sometimes speak of seeing or hearing something with the eyes or the ears of the spirit. I find that equally incomprehensible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At this stage I do not know if I am saved or not. Most of my experience suggests not, but I may be wrong. When I was a believer, did I believe everything taught about Jesus and what he did for those who believe in him? It might be going a bit far to suggest that anyone believes everything taught about Jesus, because some of the teaching about Jesus is very dubious. But if you mean did I believe in the way that most Christians believe, yes I did.</p><p></p><p>I have to repeat, though, that salvation does not come about only because of someones belief. It requires more than that; it also requires God to call a person in some way and then Gods grace in response to their belief.</p><p></p><p>I will listen to the link and deal with the rest of your posting #291 later.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="losthope, post: 58649774, member: 94863"] To joey down under, You wrote this: Inevitably I cannot cover everything in a few sentences of explanation. You give three Bible passages that consider the consequences of sin. I found it interesting that the three writers each write about different consequences of a person continuing in sin. John stresses the importance of recognising sin, of repentance, forgiveness and being made more holy, and in verse 10 says that a person who sins does not follow God an exhortation to Christians to continue to avoid sin. Paul also writes that sinners will be excluded from Gods kingdom which is part of the gospel message. The writer to the Hebrews writes that it is necessary to continue to believe and to avoid sin, because otherwise the believer will become an unbeliever and will be excluded from sharing in Christ a passage that suggests to me that it is all too possible to lose your salvation if you do not hold on to doing Gods will. I wrote before that people are tempted by the world, the flesh and the devil. I was thinking particularly of self-deception, which is an example of being deluded by the flesh. I mentioned this because I would not be able to be self-deluded in this way because I lack the emotions and feelings that are an essential component of this. However, I recognise that some people could be deluded by the devil, spiritual deception, spiritual experiences that come from the devil. I suspect that at present I am immune from these as well, because again the devil would presumably use the persons emotions in order to make the demonic spiritual experience appear more significant. Some genuine believers do join cults and follow cultish leaders. Once again, I suspect that they could do this because of being deceived by the world, the flesh or the devil. It could be due to spiritual deception from the devil, but it could just as easily be the person, or the cult leader, following some temptation from the world or from the flesh. Remember that unless there is some insight or wisdom given to a person as a gift of the Holy Spirit, then to a great extent it is a matter of personal opinion whether a particular off-beat Christian organisation is almost mainstream or is a dangerous cult. Often these groups are initially praised by Christian leaders until they move off in some unexpected spiritual direction. Also, there are many genuine Christian leaders who have almost cult status, and their followers would trust them and follow them wherever they lead. If such a Christian leader succumbs to temptation, who knows where they might lead their flock. It is a pity that the few Christian leaders who do go astray in various ways have such a big impact on public opinion of Christianity in general. Ask most people in my country what they think of television evangelists, for example. After they stop criticising or laughing, they may not remember the names, but they will certainly remember the sins, and how amusing it was to the unbelievers. You wrote recently about people mocking Christianity, but in reality one major cause of mocking Christianity is the folly and sin of the Christian leaders who are led astray. All of which goes to show how important are the three Bible passages above, and the many similar Bible verses, in encouraging people to experience a conviction of sin and repentance. I agree that God should not reject people because of their feelings or the lack of them. It is not the feelings, but the consequences of feelings that are what matters. You write that belief in Christ, true repentance and a complete change of mind and behaviour are needed for metanoia. Because I lack feelings and strong emotions, I would not (in my own strength) be able to do a complete anything. I just do not have the motivation and passion to want to make such a big change in my life. It means that I do not have a real conviction of sin, a perceived need for a saviour, a passion for repentance, the ability to make a complete change of mind or the incentive to make a complete change to my behaviour. Of course God could help me to do all of these things, but I could not manage it on my own. Unfortunately as far as I am aware, God did not help me to change, and the result was that eventually I was no longer able to trust in God. I understand why I did not change, and I understand why I lost my belief. What I am trying to understand is why there was no perceived help from God. You could certainly argue that unbelief is keeping me from God now. What I would need is some way in which I could once more be able to believe. This implies that something has to change. Maybe what would have to change is something in me. Maybe what would have to change is the way that God would try to affect me. Maybe what would have to change is something quite different that I have not thought of. Of course God would know what would be needed. However, that was not the situation when I was a believer. It was not unbelief that was keeping me from knowing God back then. Something was keeping me from knowing God though, and I am trying to find out what it was, so that something can be done about it. I began this thread in order to investigate the possibility that the reason for my disappointing experience as a believer was that I did not have true repentance because I did not have a real conviction of sin. I agree with you that I am unlikely ever to feel repentance, because for biological reasons I do not feel anything in that way. Am I thinking repentance and metanoia now? No. Did I think repentance and metanoia during the time that I was a believer? Yes, I think so. Yet I still had my disappointing experience as a believer. That is why I am asking if simply thinking repentance and metanoia is enough. Because one possibility (and it is only one possibility among several) is that just thinking repentance and trying to change my mind in my own strength without the passion associated with felt emotions was just not enough for God. I agree in principle with the message that you are conveying with these verses, that God is God and who are we to question that. However, if the creation of a new heart is a miracle, it would not be much of a miracle if nobody realised it, including the person with the new heart. In the verses from 2 Corinthians, Paul writes that the surpassing power of God is manifest in Christians. That they are not forsaken, that the life of Jesus is in the bodies of the believers. In other words, it is something that would happen and be seen to happen. Christians often speak about heart knowledge. About knowing something in your heart and not just in your head. Knowing it in your knower. What does it mean? The idea of knowing something in my heart is completely meaningless to me. Christians have tried to explain it to me, but I remain baffled. Is it a mystery that I will never be able to recognise or experience? As a slight aside, Christians also sometimes speak of seeing or hearing something with the eyes or the ears of the spirit. I find that equally incomprehensible. At this stage I do not know if I am saved or not. Most of my experience suggests not, but I may be wrong. When I was a believer, did I believe everything taught about Jesus and what he did for those who believe in him? It might be going a bit far to suggest that anyone believes everything taught about Jesus, because some of the teaching about Jesus is very dubious. But if you mean did I believe in the way that most Christians believe, yes I did. I have to repeat, though, that salvation does not come about only because of someones belief. It requires more than that; it also requires God to call a person in some way and then Gods grace in response to their belief. I will listen to the link and deal with the rest of your posting #291 later. [/QUOTE]
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