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No conviction of sin
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<blockquote data-quote="losthope" data-source="post: 58614875" data-attributes="member: 94863"><p>To joey down under,</p><p></p><p>This is the second half of following up Heart Inventory do you serve god or God? You wrote this:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Signs of growth and deeper understanding? None that I am aware of. Did I grow in knowledge of God? Unfortunately not. Did I help others grow spiritually? Possibly. Did my attitudes and thinking change and go into alignment with Christian morals over time? No. Did the Bible seem to make more sense the longer I believed? No.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is probably true that people who think much more than they feel may think they are second class Christians because there are things that feeling Christians are able to experience that thinking Christians do not experience. And someone like me, on the extreme of not having feelings, thinks they are not Christian at all. However, even though there are some ways of experiencing God that could only happen for feeling people, there ought to be ways of experiencing God that are open to everyone. Thinking believers ought to experience God if it is real. I did not experience God. Is that because I was not saved? Or is it because the idea of someone like me being able to know God is just delusion?</p><p></p><p>I liked your idea of examining Christian bestsellers to see if they appeal to feeling people rather than thinking people. Probably they are mostly aimed at feeling people. Just as much of the Bible seems to be aimed at feeling people or is that just a function of the way that feeling people translated the Bible?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am not sure what being away from Christian fellowship has to do with having doubts about being a new creation. I say that I have doubts because I have no evidence of being changed. That has nothing to do with fellowship.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I was certain that those things would be all God that wishes for me to have in this life, then yes I would accept it. Because I knew that it was Gods will for me. But I would probably not be happy about it, because then I would definitely think that I was a second class believer. It would be a faith and an acceptance in which God had not met my deepest needs.</p><p></p><p>Some people are happy to accept that their fellowship with God comes only through the Bible and maybe also via Christian fellowship. That is fine for them. But I have greater expectations. I would expect to have a personal relationship with God, and to have God working in me to help me to work for God.</p><p></p><p>If every Christian was happy with only the Bible and Christian fellowship, then I would quite possibly never have been attracted to Christianity at all.</p><p></p><p>My spiritual needs and expectations are not the same as yours. Not wrong. Just different.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well yes I suppose that is possible. But unlikely.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that you can explain away with ideas such as this, every individual type of response from God that I said I did not receive, to suggest that for every possible response, either I could not access it because it involves the emotions, or that God did act but I was unaware of it. I agree that any one of the possible ways that God might act, could be explained away in this way. But to suggest that they all were available to me and I just failed either to access them or failed to recognise any of them, that is so unlikely that I cannot accept it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I am not going to feel or see things any differently in this lifetime, then Christianity would have no attraction for me. I would not be interested. That is partly because of my lack of interest (which is not the same as not believing in it) of life after death and partly because as such a Christian I would not be able to find out how God would want me to serve.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I am not sure that I ever learned to live to please God, even when I was a believer. Of course I tried to live to please God, but never was quite able to.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because of love, a person can act in ways that demonstrate their love. Another person may act in exactly the same way for a completely different reason. It means that I do have experience of acting as if I felt love, but no experience of love itself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have written before about my observation that some Christians rely on knowing God through the Bible and expect to know God personally in the next life, and some Christians claim a personal relationship with God right now.</p><p></p><p>I would love to know if there is anyone who was surprised when they read your statement that not one person on this planet alive right now knows God the way I want to know God personally. From some of the responses that I received from Christians when I began a thread about the topic of knowing God about a year ago, I suspect that you will find some Christians who disagree strongly with your statement.</p><p></p><p>I agree that faith would be needed in order to know God, and that it would involve believing the gospel.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. A person can try to please God in their own strength, but they would do it much better with Gods help.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>In my original posting for this thread, I asked about the need for a conviction of sin, and therefore responding to Jesus sacrifice for my sins. So far, that conviction of sin has not happened. I still do not think that I have a strong need for a saviour. It means that I am still a long way from being able to serve God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have to keep on saying that it is not belief in Christ that brings salvation. Salvation could only occur through grace. That is, salvation involves God responding to the persons belief in Christ. Unless and until God responds, that person is not saved. There are several places in the gospels where Jesus speaks of people who think they are saved, but are not (and not just the Pharisees and Sadducees).</p><p></p><p>Then to those who God chooses to respond to, the Holy Spirit could give strength to enable people to keep the commandments etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry but life after death is of no interest to me. As I have said before, maybe if one day I should come to know God in this life, then I might want that relationship to continue after death and I might then be interested in life after death. But at the moment, no.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I may never experience feelings of repentance, but I assume that I could think repentance, but not until the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin in whatever way the Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin when they lack emotions.</p><p></p><p>I do not dismiss the idea of heaven and eternal life. I just have no interest in these things.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="losthope, post: 58614875, member: 94863"] To joey down under, This is the second half of following up Heart Inventory do you serve god or God? You wrote this: Signs of growth and deeper understanding? None that I am aware of. Did I grow in knowledge of God? Unfortunately not. Did I help others grow spiritually? Possibly. Did my attitudes and thinking change and go into alignment with Christian morals over time? No. Did the Bible seem to make more sense the longer I believed? No. It is probably true that people who think much more than they feel may think they are second class Christians because there are things that feeling Christians are able to experience that thinking Christians do not experience. And someone like me, on the extreme of not having feelings, thinks they are not Christian at all. However, even though there are some ways of experiencing God that could only happen for feeling people, there ought to be ways of experiencing God that are open to everyone. Thinking believers ought to experience God if it is real. I did not experience God. Is that because I was not saved? Or is it because the idea of someone like me being able to know God is just delusion? I liked your idea of examining Christian bestsellers to see if they appeal to feeling people rather than thinking people. Probably they are mostly aimed at feeling people. Just as much of the Bible seems to be aimed at feeling people or is that just a function of the way that feeling people translated the Bible? I am not sure what being away from Christian fellowship has to do with having doubts about being a new creation. I say that I have doubts because I have no evidence of being changed. That has nothing to do with fellowship. If I was certain that those things would be all God that wishes for me to have in this life, then yes I would accept it. Because I knew that it was Gods will for me. But I would probably not be happy about it, because then I would definitely think that I was a second class believer. It would be a faith and an acceptance in which God had not met my deepest needs. Some people are happy to accept that their fellowship with God comes only through the Bible and maybe also via Christian fellowship. That is fine for them. But I have greater expectations. I would expect to have a personal relationship with God, and to have God working in me to help me to work for God. If every Christian was happy with only the Bible and Christian fellowship, then I would quite possibly never have been attracted to Christianity at all. My spiritual needs and expectations are not the same as yours. Not wrong. Just different. Well yes I suppose that is possible. But unlikely. The problem is that you can explain away with ideas such as this, every individual type of response from God that I said I did not receive, to suggest that for every possible response, either I could not access it because it involves the emotions, or that God did act but I was unaware of it. I agree that any one of the possible ways that God might act, could be explained away in this way. But to suggest that they all were available to me and I just failed either to access them or failed to recognise any of them, that is so unlikely that I cannot accept it. If I am not going to feel or see things any differently in this lifetime, then Christianity would have no attraction for me. I would not be interested. That is partly because of my lack of interest (which is not the same as not believing in it) of life after death and partly because as such a Christian I would not be able to find out how God would want me to serve. I am not sure that I ever learned to live to please God, even when I was a believer. Of course I tried to live to please God, but never was quite able to. Because of love, a person can act in ways that demonstrate their love. Another person may act in exactly the same way for a completely different reason. It means that I do have experience of acting as if I felt love, but no experience of love itself. I have written before about my observation that some Christians rely on knowing God through the Bible and expect to know God personally in the next life, and some Christians claim a personal relationship with God right now. I would love to know if there is anyone who was surprised when they read your statement that not one person on this planet alive right now knows God the way I want to know God personally. From some of the responses that I received from Christians when I began a thread about the topic of knowing God about a year ago, I suspect that you will find some Christians who disagree strongly with your statement. I agree that faith would be needed in order to know God, and that it would involve believing the gospel. Agreed. A person can try to please God in their own strength, but they would do it much better with Gods help. In my original posting for this thread, I asked about the need for a conviction of sin, and therefore responding to Jesus sacrifice for my sins. So far, that conviction of sin has not happened. I still do not think that I have a strong need for a saviour. It means that I am still a long way from being able to serve God. I have to keep on saying that it is not belief in Christ that brings salvation. Salvation could only occur through grace. That is, salvation involves God responding to the persons belief in Christ. Unless and until God responds, that person is not saved. There are several places in the gospels where Jesus speaks of people who think they are saved, but are not (and not just the Pharisees and Sadducees). Then to those who God chooses to respond to, the Holy Spirit could give strength to enable people to keep the commandments etc. Sorry but life after death is of no interest to me. As I have said before, maybe if one day I should come to know God in this life, then I might want that relationship to continue after death and I might then be interested in life after death. But at the moment, no. I may never experience feelings of repentance, but I assume that I could think repentance, but not until the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin in whatever way the Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin when they lack emotions. I do not dismiss the idea of heaven and eternal life. I just have no interest in these things. [/QUOTE]
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