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No conviction of sin
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<blockquote data-quote="losthope" data-source="post: 58440982" data-attributes="member: 94863"><p>To joey down under,</p><p></p><p>You wrote this:</p><p> </p><p></p><p>1. True, I do know more about the Bible than most non-believers.</p><p>2. I try not to take verses out of context. However, when you say that a Bible verse should not contradict the Bible message in any way, I am not so sure. As I have said before, when Christians have different points of view, both sides quote the Bible to back up their ideas. Different verses do sometimes give very different messages, and there is always the problem of interpretation, knowing if a passage was aimed just at a particular person or group of people, or if it is universally applicable, and so on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I always thought that part of the process of salvation can be a conviction of sin through the action of the Holy Spirit. It is supposed to be because of the influence of the Holy Spirit that the person has a real conviction of sin, begins to understand something of what sin means to God, and knows their need of forgiveness and salvation. For many people, that conviction of sin is expressed through their emotions. For me that would not be possible, but I would hope that God would have some other way of convicting a person of sin so that they really understand what sin means, and very much want to have their sin dealt with. I do not know what alternative means God might use to convict an unemotional person of sin, but surely God ought to be able to puzzle out a little difficulty like that.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>True. Different, but on an equal level, as you say.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe Mark thought that it was not necessary to mention the emotional effect on the apostles, because it would be obvious to people from the context. Or maybe there was no special emotional context at the time. We cannot tell from those verses.</p><p></p><p>As an aside, when Jesus says, Follow me and I will make you fishers of men, I remember some women who preferred an alternative translation: Follow me and I will teach you to catch men.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are these verses addressing Gnostic ideas? For myself, I might prefer a position not quite as extreme as the Gnostic one, and say instead that ecstatic experiences (if they are truly spiritual and not just caused by the emotions) are one way of experiencing God, but definitely not the only way to experience God.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I was careful not to do that. I described myself as being a believer at one time and now no longer a believer. I use the word believer because that is definitely true for me. Whether or not I am or was a Christian, whether or not I was saved, I do not know.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Is spiritual joy the same as emotional joy? I would have to rely on people telling me the answer to such questions, giving me the benefit of their experience. To me joy, whatever the cause, is something I can observe but not experience.</p><p></p><p>Nowadays I find what people call worship to be just playing musical instruments and singing with some people making various arm movements etc in response. Not quite as enthusiastically as many people dance and move at a secular disco. But that is probably just the way I see it. If you can tell the difference between genuine worship and emotions-focussed worship, that is a valuable gift.</p><p></p><p>Thinking back many years, I can remember an occasion at a Christian meeting when there was a different kind of worship, what they said was singing in the spirit. It did not happen successfully on that occasion. </p><p></p><p>It is good that you have a sense of peace with people who love God. Yes, I suspect that such experiences (and many others) can sometimes be removed by the effects of excess medication. Doctors prescribe medicine to deal with what they consider to be the important symptoms, but they rarely take account of the other symptoms that the person experiences as a result of taking the medication, especially if the dose is too high. For example, many people with bipolar disorder are over-medicated and kept permanently depressed because the doctor is only concerned about preventing them getting a destructive high. Unfortunately one of the symptoms of being depressed can be a lack of awareness of God possibly because of the depressing effect on the emotions.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>It is an interesting suggestion but I doubt if I could block out the music sufficiently. Besides, until I become a believer again (assuming that you meant returning to church but not as a believer), giving thanks to God for what I have would, for me, be hypocritical and maybe even sinful. In the words of T S Eliot, The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right deed for the wrong reason.</p><p></p><p>I looked again at the sermon Engraved on the Palm of his Hand - Christian Reformed Church but it did not do anything for me. God doesnt forget. Why should God need something as a reminder? To me that sounds like a man creating God in his own image.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that one step at a time is all that I would need. Many postings back there was the sermon on that theme, saying that God does not need to reveal what is happening way in the future, the conclusion of our journey. However, as we progress God does need to reveal (or make obvious) the next step, and unfortunately so far I have no experience of God revealing or making obvious any step to me.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>As you say, my faith is between me and God. Before and just after I first abandoned my faith, it did concern me what some Christians said to me critically. But that did not last for long. Now I simply accept that they do not understand.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>It would be good to know the peace of God. I am concerned about personal faith, not all the time, but from time to time, over the years. I would not go as far as to call it worrying or having fear though maybe there was some of that in the time many years ago around when I stopped being a believer.</p><p></p><p>You are quite right to suggest that I can think about worry and fear, as well as joy and any other emotion. But there is no bodily sensation to accompany the thoughts, what people call feelings. Emotions involve both thinking and feeling. I can manage the thinking part, but not the feeling part. And without the feeling component, emotions lose most of their power or influence.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There was certainly a time when I thought of myself as a brother in Christ. Not nowadays, of course. But I do recognise the possibility that it might be true even though I have no awareness of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="losthope, post: 58440982, member: 94863"] To joey down under, You wrote this: 1. True, I do know more about the Bible than most non-believers. 2. I try not to take verses out of context. However, when you say that a Bible verse should not contradict the Bible message in any way, I am not so sure. As I have said before, when Christians have different points of view, both sides quote the Bible to back up their ideas. Different verses do sometimes give very different messages, and there is always the problem of interpretation, knowing if a passage was aimed just at a particular person or group of people, or if it is universally applicable, and so on. I always thought that part of the process of salvation can be a conviction of sin through the action of the Holy Spirit. It is supposed to be because of the influence of the Holy Spirit that the person has a real conviction of sin, begins to understand something of what sin means to God, and knows their need of forgiveness and salvation. For many people, that conviction of sin is expressed through their emotions. For me that would not be possible, but I would hope that God would have some other way of convicting a person of sin so that they really understand what sin means, and very much want to have their sin dealt with. I do not know what alternative means God might use to convict an unemotional person of sin, but surely God ought to be able to puzzle out a little difficulty like that. True. Different, but on an equal level, as you say. Maybe Mark thought that it was not necessary to mention the emotional effect on the apostles, because it would be obvious to people from the context. Or maybe there was no special emotional context at the time. We cannot tell from those verses. As an aside, when Jesus says, Follow me and I will make you fishers of men, I remember some women who preferred an alternative translation: Follow me and I will teach you to catch men. Are these verses addressing Gnostic ideas? For myself, I might prefer a position not quite as extreme as the Gnostic one, and say instead that ecstatic experiences (if they are truly spiritual and not just caused by the emotions) are one way of experiencing God, but definitely not the only way to experience God. No, I was careful not to do that. I described myself as being a believer at one time and now no longer a believer. I use the word believer because that is definitely true for me. Whether or not I am or was a Christian, whether or not I was saved, I do not know. Is spiritual joy the same as emotional joy? I would have to rely on people telling me the answer to such questions, giving me the benefit of their experience. To me joy, whatever the cause, is something I can observe but not experience. Nowadays I find what people call worship to be just playing musical instruments and singing with some people making various arm movements etc in response. Not quite as enthusiastically as many people dance and move at a secular disco. But that is probably just the way I see it. If you can tell the difference between genuine worship and emotions-focussed worship, that is a valuable gift. Thinking back many years, I can remember an occasion at a Christian meeting when there was a different kind of worship, what they said was singing in the spirit. It did not happen successfully on that occasion. It is good that you have a sense of peace with people who love God. Yes, I suspect that such experiences (and many others) can sometimes be removed by the effects of excess medication. Doctors prescribe medicine to deal with what they consider to be the important symptoms, but they rarely take account of the other symptoms that the person experiences as a result of taking the medication, especially if the dose is too high. For example, many people with bipolar disorder are over-medicated and kept permanently depressed because the doctor is only concerned about preventing them getting a destructive high. Unfortunately one of the symptoms of being depressed can be a lack of awareness of God possibly because of the depressing effect on the emotions. It is an interesting suggestion but I doubt if I could block out the music sufficiently. Besides, until I become a believer again (assuming that you meant returning to church but not as a believer), giving thanks to God for what I have would, for me, be hypocritical and maybe even sinful. In the words of T S Eliot, The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right deed for the wrong reason. I looked again at the sermon Engraved on the Palm of his Hand - Christian Reformed Church but it did not do anything for me. God doesnt forget. Why should God need something as a reminder? To me that sounds like a man creating God in his own image. I agree that one step at a time is all that I would need. Many postings back there was the sermon on that theme, saying that God does not need to reveal what is happening way in the future, the conclusion of our journey. However, as we progress God does need to reveal (or make obvious) the next step, and unfortunately so far I have no experience of God revealing or making obvious any step to me. As you say, my faith is between me and God. Before and just after I first abandoned my faith, it did concern me what some Christians said to me critically. But that did not last for long. Now I simply accept that they do not understand. It would be good to know the peace of God. I am concerned about personal faith, not all the time, but from time to time, over the years. I would not go as far as to call it worrying or having fear though maybe there was some of that in the time many years ago around when I stopped being a believer. You are quite right to suggest that I can think about worry and fear, as well as joy and any other emotion. But there is no bodily sensation to accompany the thoughts, what people call feelings. Emotions involve both thinking and feeling. I can manage the thinking part, but not the feeling part. And without the feeling component, emotions lose most of their power or influence. There was certainly a time when I thought of myself as a brother in Christ. Not nowadays, of course. But I do recognise the possibility that it might be true even though I have no awareness of it. [/QUOTE]
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